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Just how deep does the hell hole go? My guess is we haven't even begun to see.
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Thread: Just how deep does the hell hole go? My guess is we haven't even begun to see.

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    Just how deep does the hell hole go? My guess is we haven't even begun to see.

    http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...00.html?hpt=T1

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    Tree-Thugger zymote's Avatar
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    Re: Just how deep does the hell hole go? My guess is we haven't even begun to see.

    Meh. It only applies in the 9th circuit. Besides, you can buy a GPS jammer online for like $40.
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    Re: Just how deep does the hell hole go? My guess is we haven't even begun to see.

    Quote Originally Posted by zymote View Post
    Meh. It only applies in the 9th circuit. Besides, you can buy a GPS jammer online for like $40.
    One can also be made for about $20 worth of parts from Radio Shack that would even jam military GPS devices. Granted, this was 8 years ago when we learned about it so they may have fixed it by now.
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    Needlessly Pedantic zerojunkie's Avatar
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    Re: Just how deep does the hell hole go? My guess is we haven't even begun to see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyteshade View Post
    One can also be made for about $20 worth of parts from Radio Shack that would even jam military GPS devices. Granted, this was 8 years ago when we learned about it so they may have fixed it by now.
    I doubt it, they're only just now starting to launch the new version of GPS that's supposed to transmit on different frequencies and be less prone to interference.

    And lol at the KGB and Stasi comparisons. I don't need to say it, but it's a shitty comparison on both scale and violence. The economic aspect is laughable as well. I've known plenty of poor people who had a garage.

    I feel I need to clarify that I'm just picking at the yellow journalism on display in the article. I agree that the driveway should be considered private property, but it isn't the first time the 9th circuit has fucked something up so badly.
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    Tree-Thugger zymote's Avatar
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    Re: Just how deep does the hell hole go? My guess is we haven't even begun to see.

    Quote Originally Posted by zerojunkie View Post
    I doubt it, they're only just now starting to launch the new version of GPS that's supposed to transmit on different frequencies and be less prone to interference.
    You can jam cell phones too - it's not about technology, it's about the fact that radio frequencies are easy to block if you have a bigger transmitter.

    Quote Originally Posted by zerojunkie View Post
    And lol at the KGB and Stasi comparisons. I don't need to say it, but it's a shitty comparison on both scale and violence. The economic aspect is laughable as well. I've known plenty of poor people who had a garage.
    Agreed. I'm definitely concerned about the privacy implications, but to claim that we've got anything approaching the scale of the Lubyanka is crazy. Following pot growers is a far cry from torturing Raoul Wallenburg.

    As far as the garage thing goes, IIRC, gated apartment complexes are also not considered public spaces - even some of the projects and scary trailer parks down here have gates on the driveways. In any event, if they're allowed to use GPS tracking, it seems like it's just as easy to follow you to Wal Mart and put one on there as it would be to do it in your driveway. Probably safer, too.
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    Re: Just how deep does the hell hole go? My guess is we haven't even begun to see.

    when i see people posting shit like this i just think of Dale off King of the Hill.


    Paranoia is no way to live life, have fun with all that.

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    Re: Just how deep does the hell hole go? My guess is we haven't even begun to see.

    i'd gladly invite the government, or anyone else for that matter, to put a GPS tracking device on my car... or in my pocket... or anywhere else they want. they can also bug my computer, my phone, and anything else. i don't give a fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck.

    they'll get to see all the great porn sites i go to, all the great movies i watch. all the video games, casino trips... oh oh oh and that i have to go to work every day!!! OMG SO EXCITING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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    Re: Just how deep does the hell hole go? My guess is we haven't even begun to see.

    one has very little expectation in a car on a public roadway

    the police used an electronic device to make it easier to follow the man who was suspected of a crime

    I still haven't been able to find the opinion to get a decent look at the facts and the holding

    The car was in the driveway - that's called curtilage - and generally the expectation of privacy extends to curtilage.

    There are a couple directions the court may have gone. They may regard placing the device as no search at all or there may be some other compelling facts.

    The poor have the same expectation of privacy that everyone has. But, the poor have less money to create greater degrees of privacy that richer people can employ. That's just reality. A poor guy can't buy a farm up in the hills, build a home a long distance from any public roadway, build fences etc.

    This case, near as I can tell, didn't really expand police power that much. And, keep in mind that the 9th is crazier than a shit house rat.

    Anyway just to give some examples of what it legal.....

    The police may put a ladder on a sidewalk so they can look over your fence... and into your home... through a tiny that the shades didn't completely cover.

    As above, it may well be that the court reasoned that whether the police trailed the car and observed it with their eyes or tracked i with a device amounts to the same intrusion on the driver's privacy.

    Still.... if anyone finds the citation to the opinion or the opinion itself post it up (I checked the 9ths page a day or two ago and it wasn't up)


    this is the kind of comment that tells me the author doesn't know what the hell he's talking about

    The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, which covers this vast jurisdiction, recently decided the government can monitor you in this way virtually anytime it wants — with no need for a search warrant.
    the issue is intrusion upon privacy not the method employed to do it

    the police could camp out outside the dudes house and follow him everywhere he goes. they could do it in an unmarked car. they could do it with many unmarked cars. all without warrant. the only difference is that the device makes it easier and cheaper.


    Here is more

    In fact, the government violated Pineda-Moreno's privacy rights in two different ways. For starters, the invasion of his driveway was wrong. The courts have long held that people have a reasonable expectation of privacy in their homes and in the "curtilage," a fancy legal term for the area around the home. The government's intrusion on property just a few feet away was clearly in this zone of privacy.
    The zone of privacy means they cannot search without warrant or facts the create an exception to the warrant requirement. Using the author's reasoning the police couldn't walk to the front door and knock. Does anyone really think that a person's privacy rights have been invaded if a cop knocks on your door? Don't want to deal with cops? Don't get off the couch and answer the door.
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    Tree-Thugger zymote's Avatar
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    Re: Just how deep does the hell hole go? My guess is we haven't even begun to see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric S View Post
    when i see people posting shit like this i just think of Dale off King of the Hill.


    Paranoia is no way to live life, have fun with all that.
    Quote Originally Posted by John Vella
    why i could just kiss you, Tommy Zymote!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Blake View Post
    zymote told me he would fuck you up if you don't shut your mouth.
    Quote Originally Posted by universol View Post
    zymote is a hot dog wearing fewl, that is just too damn witty for me to even fuck with! He is the pwnd masta, Ass grabba, ruler of useless blabba! No one, and I say no one wears a hot dog suit like that without emulating the perception of just being one big dick! Don't ever trust a man that wears the weiner and the buns ever!

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    Needlessly Pedantic zerojunkie's Avatar
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    Re: Just how deep does the hell hole go? My guess is we haven't even begun to see.

    Quote Originally Posted by zymote View Post
    You can jam cell phones too - it's not about technology, it's about the fact that radio frequencies are easy to block if you have a bigger transmitter.
    Well, generally, yeah. The game does change a bit when you have systems that are designed under the premise someone will try to jam it though. Here's some links I came across you might be interested in.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS_modernization
    http://www.aero.org/publications/cro...er2002/06.html

    Quote Originally Posted by zymote View Post
    Agreed. I'm definitely concerned about the privacy implications, but to claim that we've got anything approaching the scale of the Lubyanka is crazy. Following pot growers is a far cry from torturing Raoul Wallenburg.

    As far as the garage thing goes, IIRC, gated apartment complexes are also not considered public spaces - even some of the projects and scary trailer parks down here have gates on the driveways. In any event, if they're allowed to use GPS tracking, it seems like it's just as easy to follow you to Wal Mart and put one on there as it would be to do it in your driveway. Probably safer, too.
    And really, I don't see the difference between this and the DEA/FBI assigning a couple agents to tail you. Only this is a little more efficient.
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    Re: Just how deep does the hell hole go? My guess is we haven't even begun to see.

    I bought a Google Droid phone. I dun took the mark of the beast at this point. lol
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    Tree-Thugger zymote's Avatar
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    Re: Just how deep does the hell hole go? My guess is we haven't even begun to see.

    Quote Originally Posted by zerojunkie View Post
    Well, generally, yeah. The game does change a bit when you have systems that are designed under the premise someone will try to jam it though. Here's some links I came across you might be interested in.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS_modernization
    http://www.aero.org/publications/cro...er2002/06.html
    By the time those are finished, I'm sure there will be methods to jam them too. That's definitely interesting reading, though - I can see why the military's so eager for those.

    Quote Originally Posted by zerojunkie View Post
    And really, I don't see the difference between this and the DEA/FBI assigning a couple agents to tail you. Only this is a little more efficient.
    Or just subpoenaing Google or your cell provider for all the location data they pull off the GPS on your phone. Why do they really need to put gps tracking on us when we'll carry it voluntarily?
    Quote Originally Posted by John Vella
    why i could just kiss you, Tommy Zymote!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Blake View Post
    zymote told me he would fuck you up if you don't shut your mouth.
    Quote Originally Posted by universol View Post
    zymote is a hot dog wearing fewl, that is just too damn witty for me to even fuck with! He is the pwnd masta, Ass grabba, ruler of useless blabba! No one, and I say no one wears a hot dog suit like that without emulating the perception of just being one big dick! Don't ever trust a man that wears the weiner and the buns ever!

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    Tree-Thugger zymote's Avatar
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    Re: Just how deep does the hell hole go? My guess is we haven't even begun to see.

    Quote Originally Posted by zerojunkie View Post
    Well, generally, yeah. The game does change a bit when you have systems that are designed under the premise someone will try to jam it though. Here's some links I came across you might be interested in.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS_modernization
    http://www.aero.org/publications/cro...er2002/06.html
    By the time those are finished, I'm sure there will be methods to jam them too. That's definitely interesting reading, though - I can see why the military's so eager for those.

    Quote Originally Posted by zerojunkie View Post
    And really, I don't see the difference between this and the DEA/FBI assigning a couple agents to tail you. Only this is a little more efficient.
    Or just subpoenaing Google or your cell provider for all the location data they pull off the GPS on your phone. Why do they really need to put gps tracking on us when we'll carry it voluntarily?
    Quote Originally Posted by John Vella
    why i could just kiss you, Tommy Zymote!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Blake View Post
    zymote told me he would fuck you up if you don't shut your mouth.
    Quote Originally Posted by universol View Post
    zymote is a hot dog wearing fewl, that is just too damn witty for me to even fuck with! He is the pwnd masta, Ass grabba, ruler of useless blabba! No one, and I say no one wears a hot dog suit like that without emulating the perception of just being one big dick! Don't ever trust a man that wears the weiner and the buns ever!

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    Re: Just how deep does the hell hole go? My guess is we haven't even begun to see.

    United States Court of Appeals,
    Ninth Circuit.
    UNITED STATES of America, Plaintiff-Appellee,
    v.
    Juan PINEDA-MORENO, Defendant-Appellant.

    No. 08-30385.
    Aug. 12, 2010.

    Judith Harper, Assistant U.S., USME-Office of the U.S. Attorney, Medford, OR, Amy Potter, Assistant U.S., Office of the U.S. Attorney, Portland, OR, for Plaintiff-Appellee.

    Harrison Latto, Portland, OR, for Defendant-Appellant.

    D.C. No. 1:07-CR-30036-PA, District of Oregon, Medford.
    Before DIARMUID F. O'SCANNLAIN and N. RANDY SMITH, Circuit Judges, and CHARLES R. WOLLE, Senior District Judge.FN*


    FN* The Honorable Charles R. Wolle, United States District Judge for the Southern District of Iowa, sitting by designation.

    ORDER
    *1 Judges O'Scannlain and N.R. Smith have voted to deny the petition for rehearing en banc, and Judge Wolle has so recommended.

    The full court was advised of the petition for rehearing en banc. A judge requested a vote on whether to rehear the matter en banc, and the matter failed to receive a majority of the votes of the nonrecused active judges in favor of en banc consideration. Fed. R.App. P. 35.

    The petition for rehearing en banc is DENIED.

    Chief Judge KOZINSKI, with whom Judges REINHARDT, WARDLAW, PAEZ and BERZON join, dissenting from the denial of rehearing en banc:

    *1 Having previously decimated the protections the Fourth Amendment accords to the home itself, United States v. Lemus, 596 F.3d 512 (9th Cir.2010) (Kozinski, C.J., dissenting from the denial of rehearing en banc); United States v. Black, 482 F.3d 1044 (9th Cir.2007) (Kozinski, J., dissenting from the denial of rehearing en banc), our court now proceeds to dismantle the zone of privacy we enjoy in the home's curtilage and in public. The needs of law enforcement, to which my colleagues seem inclined to refuse nothing, are quickly making personal privacy a distant memory.1984 may have come a bit later than predicted, but it's here at last.

    The facts are disturbingly simple: Police snuck onto Pineda-Moreno's property in the dead of night and attached a GPS tracking device to the underside of his car. The device continuously recorded the car's location, allowing police to monitor all of Pineda-Moreno's movements without the need for visual surveillance. The panel holds that none of this implicates the Fourth Amendment, even though the government concedes that the car was in the curtilage of Pineda-Moreno's home at the time the police attached the tracking device. The panel twice errs in very significant and dangerous ways.

    1. The opinion assumes that Pineda-Moreno's driveway was part of his home's curtilage, yet concludes that Pineda-Moreno had no reasonable expectation of privacy there. Curtilage is a quaint word most people are not familiar with; even among judges and lawyers, the word is seldom well understood. Yet, it stands for a very important concept because it rounds out the constitutional protections accorded an individual when he is at home.

    Curtilage comes to us by way of Middle English and traces its roots to the Old French courtillage, roughly meaning court or little yard. In modern times it has come to mean those portions of a homeowner's property so closely associated with the home as to be considered part of it. The walkway leading from the street to the house is probably part of the curtilage, and the stairs from the walkway to the porch almost certainly are, as is the porch where grandma sits and rocks most afternoons and watches strangers pass by. The attached garage on the side of the house is part of the curtilage, and so is the detached shed where dad keeps his shop equipment and mom her gardening tools-so long as it's not too far from the house itself. The front lawn is part of the curtilage, and the driveway and the backyard-if it's not too big, and is properly separated from the open fields beyond the house.

    *2 Whether some portion of property-the porch, the stairs, the shed, the yard, the chicken coop-is part of the curtilage is sometimes a disputed question. But once it is determined that something is part of the curtilage, it's entitled to precisely the same Fourth Amendment protections as the home itself. How do we know? Because the Supreme Court has said so repeatedly.
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    Re: Just how deep does the hell hole go? My guess is we haven't even begun to see.

    In Oliver v. United States, the Court said as follows:

    [O]nly the curtilage ... warrants the Fourth Amendment protections that attach to the home. At common law, the curtilage is the area to which extends the intimate activity associated with the “sanctity of a man's home and the privacies of life,” and therefore has been considered part of home itself for Fourth Amendment purposes. Thus, courts have extended Fourth Amendment protection to the curtilage.

    466 U.S. 170, 180 (1984) (quoting Boyd v. United States, 116 U .S. 616, 630 (1886)) (emphasis added). Three years later, the Court reiterated the same view in United States v. Dunn, 480 U.S. 294, 300 (1987):

    [In Oliver ] we recognized that the Fourth Amendment protects the curtilage of a house and that the extent of the curtilage is determined by factors that bear upon whether an individual reasonably may expect that the area in question should be treated as the home itself.

    (Emphasis added). See also Dow Chemical Co. v. United States, 476 U.S. 227, 231 (1986) (citing Oliver, 466 U.S. at 170). There's no disputing that the Court considers the curtilage to stand on the same footing as the home itself for purposes of the Fourth Amendment.

    While it can be unclear whether a particular portion of the homeowner's property is part of the curtilage, there's no doubt here because the government concedes that Pineda-Moreno's driveway is a part of his curtilage, and the panel expressly assumes that it is. United States v. Pineda-Moreno, 591 F.3d 1212, 1214-15 (9th Cir .2010). Having made that assumption, Oliver and Dunn require the panel to “treat[ ][it] as the home itself.” Dunn, 480 U.S. at 300. Instead, the panel holds that Pineda-Moreno was required to separately establish a reasonable expectation of privacy in the curtilage. That-according to Oliver and Dunn-is like requiring the home-owner to establish a reasonable expectation of privacy in his bedroom. We are often reminded that we must follow Supreme Court precedent, see, e.g., Winn v. Ariz. Christian Sch. Tuition Org., 586 F.3d 649, 658-59 (9th Cir.2009) (O'Scannlain, J., dissenting from denial of rehearing en banc), but the panel here forgets this advice.

    The panel does cite California v. Ciraolo, 476 U.S. 207 (1986), but that case undermines its position. Ciraolo held that a homeowner has no reasonable expectation of visual privacy in his property as to activities that might be seen from a low-flying airplane. The activity there in question-cultivation of marijuana-took place in the homeowner's yard, so the Court could have limited its discussion to the curtilage. Instead, Ciraolo quoted a passage from Katz v. United States, 389 US. 347, 361 (1967), to the effect that “a man's home is, for most purposes, a place where he expects privacy, but objects, activities, or statements that he exposes to the ‘plain view’ of outsiders are not ‘protected’ because no intention to keep them to himself has been exhibited.” Ciraolo, 476 U.S. at 215 (quoting Katz, 389 U.S. at 361). This passage applies equally to a person's yard as his porch and his bedroom window: If what you do in your home is visible to the public, you have no reasonable expectation that it will remain private. Ciraolo cites Oliver and follows its analysis by treating the curtilage and the home as exactly the same for Fourth Amendment purposes.

    *3 The panel's rationale for concluding that Pineda-Moreno had no reasonable expectation of privacy is even more worrisome than its disregard of Supreme Court precedent: According to the panel, Pineda-Moreno's driveway was open to the public in that strangers wishing to reach the door of his trailer “to deliver the newspaper or to visit someone would have to go through the driveway to get to the house.” Pineda-Moreno, 591 F.3d at 1215. But there are many parts of a person's property that are accessible to strangers for limited purposes: the mailman is entitled to open the gate and deposit mail in the front door slot; the gas man may come into the yard, go into the basement or look under the house to read the meter; the gardener goes all over the property, climbs trees, opens sheds, turns on the sprinkler and taps into the electrical outlets; the pool man, the cable guy, the telephone repair man, the garbage collector, the newspaper delivery boy (we should be so lucky) come onto the property to deliver their wares, perform maintenance or make repairs. This doesn't mean that we invite neighbors to use the pool, strangers to camp out on the lawn or police to snoop in the garage. See United States v. Hedrick, 922 F.2d 396, 400, 402 (7th Cir.1991) (Cudahy, J., dissenting).

    The panel authorizes police to do not only what invited strangers could, but also uninvited children-in this case crawl under the car to retrieve a ball and tinker with the undercarriage. But there's no limit to what neighborhood kids will do, given half a chance: They'll jump the fence, crawl under the porch, pick fruit from the trees, set fire to the cat and micturate on the azaleas. To say that the police may do on your property what urchins might do spells the end of Fourth Amendment protections for most people's curtilage.

    The very rich will still be able to protect their privacy with the aid of electric gates, tall fences, security booths, remote cameras, motion sensors and roving patrols, but the vast majority of the 60 million people living in the Ninth Circuit will see their privacy materially diminished by the panel's ruling. Open driveways, unenclosed porches, basement doors left unlocked, back doors left ajar, yard gates left unlatched, garage doors that don't quite close, ladders propped up under an open window will all be considered invitations for police to sneak in on the theory that a neighborhood child might, in which case, the homeowner “would have no grounds to complain.” Id.

    There's been much talk about diversity on the bench, but there's one kind of diversity that doesn't exist: No truly poor people are appointed as federal judges, or as state judges for that matter. Judges, regardless of race, ethnicity or sex, are selected from the class of people who don't live in trailers or urban ghettos. The everyday problems of people who live in poverty are not close to our hearts and minds because that's not how we and our friends live. Yet poor people are entitled to privacy, even if they can't afford all the gadgets of the wealthy for ensuring it. Whatever else one may say about Pineda-Moreno, it's perfectly clear that he did not expect-and certainly did not consent-to have strangers prowl his property in the middle of the night and attach electronic tracking devices to the underside of his car. No one does.
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