Please take the time to read this...

This was originally posted in useless blabbler regarding the rights of homosexuals... i thought it was worth re-posting.

AaronNotFromDfw:

The diference is some Straight and/or Christian people have all the civil rights they want or need in this country and would happily discard gay people and all of our rights. I know no one wants another persons viewpoint shoved in thier face. But, if we all just accepted our position in life and never spoke out black people would still be going to crappy schools, women wouldn't be able to vote, atheists would still be discriminated against, and we'd all still be paying a damn stamp tax to England.

Social change dosen't occur if people are not made aware of the issues. I hate to say it but a large majority of people in this country pay absolutely no heed to what goes on around them, politically speaking. If you just want gay people to shut the hell up, give us all the rights you have and we'll leave you alone. Until then you're gonna keep hearing about it.

[USAcommitteeX]

I'm a pro-Bush Right Wing conservative..who would be for gay marriage, I don't have a probelm with it. Of course the Religion aspect would be brought up over and over again, most would say God intended man/woman not man/man or woman/woman, whether its wrong or right is no mans place to judge but only God.

[johnny861]

I'm all for gay rights, I'm just against any state recognized marriage, be it hetro or homo....

It's archaic... On the flipside, I am all for civil unions of any kind... be it hetro, homo, inter-special, groups of individuals... etc... but not for the definition of what a traditional marriage is...

Holy matrimony or not, marriage existed before this country existed and finds it's roots in religion and I will stand by seperation of church and state...

[VickiC]

Originally posted by USAcommitteeX
God intended man/woman not man/man or woman/woman, whether its wrong or right is no mans place to judge but only God.

last time I checked in this country we are not forced to believe in God or follow a certain religion...

apparently Bush has never heard of separation of church and state

[VickiC]

http://www.au.org/site/PageServer?pa...ssues_marriage

[USAcommitteeX]

last time I checked in this country we are not forced to believe in God or follow a certain religion...

Your correct....but we are a nation founded on Judeo Christian beliefs, and President Bush has todo what he thinks is best for our nation, and either way hes going to have millions pissed off and shooting our their mouthes about him, aren't you glad you don't have that much pressure on yourself? Would you feel better if I were against gay marriage?

Opposition to granting gay people the right to marriage is simple blind faith ignorance. It is generally based on some silly notion of homosexuality being a "lifestyle choice and a sin against God" completely ignoring the growing mountain of medical research that shows it is no choice at all and, in fact, occurs in nature among many species suggesting it is quite natural and quite normal. Furthermore, for some to say, such as Bush, that it is ok to be gay but gay marriage is not ok – is both hypocritical and demented.

But blind faith ignorance isn’t just limited to gay marriage, here a few other hot issues:

- Opposition to fetal stem-cell research and to the right to abortion overall – an opposition based on a religiously founded notion of a soul. These are much bigger and far more serious issues as gay marriage.

- Insisting on teaching creationism (in all its mutated forms) in the science classroom despite the fact there is no credible scientific foundation for creationism. Creationism is purely based on religious belief only.

- A long and continuing history of hatred, war, death, and destruction wrought upon each other based on arguments over whose god is the real god.

Do I need to go on?

I say it again; nothing good comes out of religion and religious belief, as proven time after time. We are quite capable of morals and ethics, of governing ourselves, of self-restraint and self control, of forming a peaceful, productive, successful, and just society without the crutch of self-blinding by faith, especially the christian and islamic faith – which are the filthiest among all religions.

apparently Bush has never heard of separation of church and state

“Separation of church and state” is a joke, especially when it comes to republicans and conservatives in general. Who do you think voted for Bush, we atheists, freethinkers, secularists? Christians did. They voted for him because he supports leading christian church’s involvement in government decisions. Hence the issues mentioned above.

[USAcommitteeX]

I say it again; nothing good comes out of religion and religious belief, as proven time after time.

1 billion christians would disagree with you, same goes for the 1 billion muslims and 6 million jews. You should be glad that you live in this country today, and not a country like Saudi Arabia who behead their gay population. President Bush cannot make everyone happy its impossible..

[Krash]

Originally posted by USAcommitteeX
1 billion christians would disagree with you, same goes for the 1 billion muslims and 6 million jews. You should be glad that you live in this country today, and not a country like Saudi Arabia who behead their gay population. President Bush cannot make everyone happy its impossible..

In a world that is becoming more and more aethiest that will surely change, thankfully.

Both the UK, China and a lot of Europe are officially classed as aethiest states, by population, and that trend is increasing. The only religion that is actually gaining in any large numbers is Islam but even that has slowed down.

Personally I tick agnostic if asked and I know very few people who go to church or practice religion, though I know plenty of people who call themselves "religious" (ie sikh, hindu, etc).

Originally posted by USAcommitteeX
I'm a pro-Bush Right Wing conservative..who would be for gay marriage, I don't have a probelm with it. Of course the Religion aspect would be brought up over and over again, most would say God intended man/woman not man/man or woman/woman, whether its wrong or right is no mans place to judge but only God.

And I do not support expanding the definition of marriage to include same sex marriage.

However, invoking God, Leviticus etc has no legal merit as an objection.

Originally posted by johnny861


Holy matrimony or not, marriage existed before this country existed and finds it's roots in religion and I will stand by seperation of church and state...

You're argument would seem to fall considering the number of atheissts who been able to get married.

The insitution may be sanctioned by religion but that makes it no less valuable to society as a secular institution.

Another problem - separation has to do with establishment of a state religion not the elimination of any form of religious expression in public life. The state will recognize a weddnig ceremony performed by a minister of any recognized religion.*

Another problem - marriage is an institution recognized pretty much everywhere. Marriage is not an institution unique to any culture or religion so one cannot make a unified attack on the institution by objecting to its religious roots - it is far to simply of an objection - each religion has its own history.



*My brother whose only claim to being a minister of any kind was filling out a form on the internet was legally entitled to conduct thwe wedding ceremony of his best friend. So being recognized isn't too difficult.

[matt]

civil union is the only answer. forget changing terms of marriage, and go with the civil union. keep marriage man/woman, and go with civil union. I am in no way saying that gays should not have the right to marry, i am only offerin my spin on the subject...the act of a civil union would not pertain to only gays, for i would rather have one myself, seeing as im not of the christian/catholic faith...

Originally posted by technoboy
Who do you think voted for Bush, we atheists, freethinkers, secularists? Christians did. They voted for him because he supports leading christian church?s involvement in government decisions. Hence the issues mentioned above.

Al Gore, during the 2000 presidential campaign more a WWJD bracelet. (What Would Jesus Do) Al Gore is a devout Christian. He appealed to this base in his campaign.

My point is only that Christianity is not a function of being a democrat or a republican.

Originally posted by Krash
In a world that is becoming more and more aethiest that will surely change, thankfully.

Krash Krash Krash - you think the world is abandonning religion? There's a big hole in Manhatten created by guys who claimed to be agents of their god.

Originally posted by Krash
Both the UK, China and a lot of Europe are officially classed as aethiest states, by population, and that trend is increasing. The only religion that is actually gaining in any large numbers is Islam but even that has slowed down.

So was the USSR - look at the revival of churches in Russia after the collapse of communism. Even if it is the opium - apparently many want it and I think the Russian relgious revival contradicts your primary assertion here.

Originally posted by Krash
Personally I tick agnostic if asked and I know very few people who go to church or practice religion, though I know plenty of people who call themselves "religious" (ie sikh, hindu, etc).

So - now you've confused me. I think that last bit just said - "yeah I believe in 'god' but maybe I don't. I'm just too lazy to do anything about it."? I look forward to your retort

[Krash]

Originally posted by xiannaix
Krash Krash Krash - you think the world is abandonning religion? There's a big hole in Manhatten created by guys who claimed to be agents of their god.

Not the world, no - I mis-represented what I was trying to say: The trend in Europe and elsewhere , aka the "Developed" world, is that people are turning their backs on religion, and have been doing since the 3 r's (reformation, renaissance and scientific revolution).

Originally posted by xiannaix
So was the USSR - look at the revival of churches in Russia after the collapse of communism. Even if it is the opium - apparently many want it and I think the Russian relgious revival contradicts your primary assertion here.

Russia is a unique case, everything they believed in fell away to be shown, as inefectually as it was implemented, as inferior. The opiate, in this case, was falling back on to something solid they could believe in - can you see that happening any time soon with capitalism / democracy?

Originally posted by xiannaix
So - now you've confused me. I think that last bit just said - "yeah I believe in 'god' but maybe I don't. I'm just too lazy to do anything about it."? I look forward to your retort

Well, until we define "God" and what a belief in such a concept entails, how can we believe in it? The one thing that certainly is true, ime, is that no one, regardless of faith, can agree a definition - so we all, whether you're christian, muslim or whatever, believe in different things.

I have a lot of time for people who believe in religion, not because I have such blind faith but because I can explain away that we were "created", by some omnipotent being such as 'Q', out of Star Trek (showing my geek traits here). If there is such a god, then he's an alien - and that's explanation I'd be happy with.

That isn't my favoured interpretation though, personally my own beliefs are more along the line of replace "god" with "self" and you're somewhere near to it.

So, do I believe in god? Yes, I believe in myself, they're one and the same