Holocaust rememberance...

[johnny861]

I was listening to a radio show today on KLIF.. I can't think of the guy's name, Mark somebody I think...


Anyway, one of his guests is a guy that runs a Holocaust memorial in Washington D.C.

And they went on about it... how it is our duty to remember this and to teach our children about this so that something like this would never happen again...


And I thought... ok... yea, that makes sense... but the problem I see is that it has been happening over and over again....

So I'm listening and this guy calls in... and says, it is tragic about the holocaust, but we need to wake up and realize that genocide is happening everywhere and that we need to do something to stop this...

Before he could finish his statement, the commentator cut him off and said, we are not going to talk about or focus on that today, what we are focusing on is the holocaust. Thank you.

and then continues his line about teaching others so that this horrible holocaust will never happen again.

Well, of course this infuriated me. Yes, I certainly wouldn't want to subject the jews to any kind of violence or bigotry, but I find it arrogant of him to remember the horrors of the jewish holocaust with out acknowledging the horrors of genocide.

What about the Bosnians? Or the Rwandans? or what about 30 years before the jewish holocaust when over 1 million armenians were systematically murdered by the Turks over an oil pipeline?

Why does that go unnoticed? Technically shouldn't they be considered the first modern account of genocide?

I thought the purpose of remembering the holocaust served as a reminder to humanity of the horrors of genocide, not simply the horrors of killing jews.

but I'm sure if I carried some sort of celebrity status, hollywood would have taken the statements I just said here and black listed me as an anti-semite.

I don't wish to sound uncompassionate, but to not acknowledge other genocide than the jewish holocaust is well, about as bad as holocaust denial.

[Import]

Some people have made it their misson to say 'just because a past generation suffered, you all owe us now.' And its bull. Yes its great to remember that it happened and not want it to happen again but you also have to realise why it happened and why it continues and then take steps to make a difference in today's world. Fuck the 'feel good' pieces.

How about we remember the russians that died around the same time - killed by their own leaders. Or the American internment camps. Or the Koreans that will bury their people alive, or all the other countries that commit these same atrocities to their own people without a second thought.

Just because you are jewish, or an immigrant or an african american, doesn't mean you are owed anything other than a chance to do something with your own life. Time to become strong and independant not as a jew or an immigrant or an african american but as an american.

[USAcommitteeX]

How about we remember the russians that died around the same time - killed by their own leaders.

May 9, the Russians call it Victory Day.

[Adam D]

I have a number of thoughts here.

First of all, genocide is a word thrown around entirely too much. There are, by actual definition of the word, only 7 or 8 legitimate genocides that have occurred. Genocide is the systematic killing of an ethnic population with the intent of erasing the entirety of such a population. While Stalin did kill 20 million of his own, for example, his intent was not genocidal, it wasn't focused upon killing the entire Russian population. Or even the Georgian population, who he systematically did target because he didn't trust them. It makes sense, after all...he was a Georgian.

Second, we should realize that there is very horrible and widespread deaths of many people (such as the one discussed above) and we should look not shun those or treat them as less serious than genocides. 20 million dead is 20 million dead regardless of who they were. It's unfortunate that attention is neglected where it should be until somebody coins mass death a "genocide".

Third, it really bothers me that the Holocaust is only remembered as a Jewish genocide. It was a Jewish genocide in part, but there were many more killed. In fact, 20 million people were killed in the Holocaust, but only less than a third (6 million) were Jews. I don't think it makes any sense to talk about the need for rememberance, and then only demand rememberance of part of what actually happened.

[steve-o]

http://holocaust-history.org/~rjg/deaths.shtml

Originally posted by Adam D
I have a number of thoughts here.

First of all, genocide is a word thrown around entirely too much.

Much like comparisons to being a Nazi.

Originally posted by Adam D
There are, by actual definition of the word, only 7 or 8 legitimate genocides that have occurred. Genocide is the systematic killing of an ethnic population with the intent of erasing the entirety of such a population. While Stalin did kill 20 million of his own, for example, his intent was not genocidal, it wasn't focused upon killing the entire Russian population. Or even the Georgian population,

Mostly Ukranian from what I recall. (7-10 million) And, prior to WWII - click me
20,000,000 is the number of Russians killed in WWII

Or, are you referring to a different mass exterminaton of people under Stalin - there are so many to choose from.

Originally posted by Adam D
who he systematically did target because he didn't trust them. It makes sense, after all...he was a Georgian.

Second, we should realize that there is very horrible and widespread deaths of many people (such as the one discussed above) and we should look not shun those or treat them as less serious than genocides. 20 million dead is 20 million dead regardless of who they were. It's unfortunate that attention is neglected where it should be until somebody coins mass death a "genocide".

Third, it really bothers me that the Holocaust is only remembered as a Jewish genocide. It was a Jewish genocide in part, but there were many more killed. In fact, 20 million people were killed in the Holocaust, but only less than a third (6 million) were Jews. I don't think it makes any sense to talk about the need for rememberance, and then only demand rememberance of part of what actually happened.

During WWII no single group was more effectively singled out and destroyed as were the Jews.

We could point to the extermination of the Avars by Charlemagne if we want evidence of total success - but Hitler was quite efficient in eliminating Germany of Jews.

What group do you find more deserving of remembering when the term holocaust is used?

[Import]

how about ethnic people in germany at the time or older people or anyoen with a birth defect. How about anyone that wanted to be something other than blond haired blue eyed christians. A lot of people died, not just the jews. They are just the most vocal group.

Originally posted by beth underwood
how about ethnic people in germany at the time or older people or anyoen with a birth defect. How about anyone that wanted to be something other than blond haired blue eyed christians. A lot of people died, not just the jews. They are just the most vocal group.

They were the only group that can claim 6,000,000 killed.

The blonde haired blue eyed class wasn't even typically german - rather - Norweigen and Swedish.

Nor was Hitler a devout Christian even if born a Catholic.

Christianity was not a point of pride for the Nazis.

[USAcommitteeX]

Warsaw ghetto uprising: http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/getto_43.htm
My grandfather was a survivor of Dachau, thats the camp where the Nazi's performed inhumane and brutal medical experiments on jews.

[Krash]

Originally posted by johnny861
I was listening to a radio show today on KLIF.. I can't think of the guy's name, Mark somebody I think...


Anyway, one of his guests is a guy that runs a Holocaust memorial in Washington D.C.

And they went on about it... how it is our duty to remember this and to teach our children about this so that something like this would never happen again...


And I thought... ok... yea, that makes sense... but the problem I see is that it has been happening over and over again....

So I'm listening and this guy calls in... and says, it is tragic about the holocaust, but we need to wake up and realize that genocide is happening everywhere and that we need to do something to stop this...

Before he could finish his statement, the commentator cut him off and said, we are not going to talk about or focus on that today, what we are focusing on is the holocaust. Thank you.

and then continues his line about teaching others so that this horrible holocaust will never happen again.

Well, of course this infuriated me. Yes, I certainly wouldn't want to subject the jews to any kind of violence or bigotry, but I find it arrogant of him to remember the horrors of the jewish holocaust with out acknowledging the horrors of genocide.

What about the Bosnians? Or the Rwandans? or what about 30 years before the jewish holocaust when over 1 million armenians were systematically murdered by the Turks over an oil pipeline?

Why does that go unnoticed? Technically shouldn't they be considered the first modern account of genocide?

I thought the purpose of remembering the holocaust served as a reminder to humanity of the horrors of genocide, not simply the horrors of killing jews.

but I'm sure if I carried some sort of celebrity status, hollywood would have taken the statements I just said here and black listed me as an anti-semite.

I don't wish to sound uncompassionate, but to not acknowledge other genocide than the jewish holocaust is well, about as bad as holocaust denial.

It just goes to show that people still really don't have a clue what it is they are supposed to be remembering. It's as if they only spout "Holocaust" because so many others do, not because they care.

[Adam D]

Originally posted by xiannaix
Mostly Ukranian from what I recall. (7-10 million) And, prior to WWII - click me
20,000,000 is the number of Russians killed in WWII

Or, are you referring to a different mass exterminaton of people under Stalin - there are so many to choose from.

I was referring to Stalin's handiwork.

During WWII no single group was more effectively singled out and destroyed as were the Jews.

We could point to the extermination of the Avars by Charlemagne if we want evidence of total success - but Hitler was quite efficient in eliminating Germany of Jews.

What group do you find more deserving of remembering when the term holocaust is used?

I don't mean to take away any of the specific significance of the Holocaust from the Jews, who in fact it was a genocide.

My problem is that it seems the Holocaust has been edified as a Jewish-only event when only half or less than half (I'm thinking the number was actually 12 million total, not 20 million) killed in the Holocaust itself were Jews.

It does a great disservice to the history of the Holocaust and to the others who died during it to ignore them as though it never happened. These groups included: Catholic clergy, handicapped, homosexuals, Poles, Roma, political dissidents, and a number of other ethnic groups throughout eastern Europe. These people deserve to be remembered just as much as the Jews who were executed.

Originally posted by Adam D


I was referring to Stalin's handiwork.



I don't mean to take away any of the specific significance of the Holocaust from the Jews, who in fact it was a genocide.

My problem is that it seems the Holocaust has been edified as a Jewish-only event when only half or less than half (I'm thinking the number was actually 12 million total, not 20 million) killed in the Holocaust itself were Jews.

It does a great disservice to the history of the Holocaust and to the others who died during it to ignore them as though it never happened. These groups included: Catholic clergy, handicapped, homosexuals, Poles, Roma, political dissidents, and a number of other ethnic groups throughout eastern Europe. These people deserve to be remembered just as much as the Jews who were executed. [/B]

Agreed - the Jews were not the only target.