Iraqis the Only Ones Getting Cheap Gas

[Dionysos]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...d=540&ncid=716

BAGHDAD, Iraq - One of the prewar forecasts was that by invading Iraq (news - web sites), the world would profit from stable exports of Iraq's oil. And that would translate into cheap gas for American drivers. Now, with U.S. gasoline averaging $2.05 per gallon — about 50 cents more than the pre-invasion price — that logic has been flipped on its head.

Instead, Iraqis seem to be the only people getting cheap gas as a result of the invasion. They pay just five cents for a gallon — thanks to hundreds of millions of dollars in U.S. taxpayer subsidies.

Since Iraq has little capacity to refine its own gasoline, the U.S. government pays about $1.50 a gallon to purchase fuel in neighboring countries and deliver it to Iraqi filling stations. A three-month supply costs American taxpayers more than $500 million, not including the cost of military escorts.

The arrangement keeps a fleet of 4,200 tank trucks constantly on the move, ferrying fuel to Iraq.

Baghdad taxi driver Osama Hashim says he owes his livelihood to the U.S. taxpayer.

"We thank the Americans. They risked their lives to liberate us and now they are improving our lives," said Hashim, 26, topping up the tank on his beat-up 1983 Volkswagen.

Filling a 22-gallon tank in Baghdad with low-grade fuel costs just $1.10, plus a 50-cent tip for the attendant. A tankful of high-test costs $2.75.

In Britain, by contrast, gasoline prices hit $5.79 per gallon last week — $127 for a tankful.

Iraq's fuel subsidies, which are intended to mollify drivers used to low-priced fuel under Saddam Hussein (news - web sites), have coupled with the opening of the borders to create an anarchic car culture in Baghdad.

Cheap used cars shipped from Europe and Asia are flooding into Iraq. A 10-year-old BMW in good condition costs just $5,000. Since gas is so cheap, anyone with a car can become a taxi driver. Drivers jam the streets, offering rides for as little as 250 dinars — about 17 cents.

Iraq has no sales tax, no registration, no license plates and no auto insurance. Some would argue there are no rules of the road. Cars barrel the wrong way on the highway. They swoop into surprise U-turns. They ignore traffic signals.

Analysts say the U.S. gas subsidies can't last forever.

"The U.S. taxpayer has a right to be indignant, and Iraqis have to be warned about the long-run damages of this," said Anthony Cordesman, an Iraq analyst with the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies. "The minute the aid goes out, the party is over. And there's going to be a hell of a hangover."

The U.S. government paid even more last year for Iraqis' gasoline — between $1.59 and $1.70 per gallon — when the imports were contracted to Halliburton, the Texas oil services giant formerly headed by Vice President Dick Cheney (news - web sites).

The cheap fuel is spurring unsustainable demand, promoting wasteful use of energy and transportation, and squandering Iraq's oil output that might otherwise be exported, Cordesman said.

"You're leading people to buy cars that aren't affordable at normal costs," he said. "You need to move toward real market prices as quickly as you can without causing instability."

Iraqi drivers protest that the price difference between a gallon of gas in the United States and Iraq is fair, because the average Iraqi earns around $1,000 per year, a thirtieth of the average U.S. wage.

"If the price of gas goes up, we'll see lots of anger in the street," said cab driver Hashim, at a grimy filling station on Saadoun Street in central Baghdad.

Cheap gasoline is also needed to fuel the ubiquitous portable electric generators in Iraq, which power air conditioners during long daily blackouts.

Hashim and another driver, convinced, like many Iraqis, that the United States reaps huge amounts of cheap Iraqi oil, said subsidized gasoline was the least Americans could provide in return.

"The United States controls all Iraqi resources now," said Jenan Jabro, 50, tanking up his black Opel. "So what if they have to pay a little bit for gasoline? That's nothing compared to what they get in return."

Analysts say there never was a good case — either before the war or afterward — that a U.S. invasion would pay dividends in cheap oil.

"Some of the neo-conservatives might've been saying that, but no energy analysts were walking around saying that," Cordesman said.

Iraq's current exports of just under 2 million barrels of oil a day aren't enough to dent the world market price. It will take up to three years to bring Iraq back just to 1991 export levels, said Rachel Bronson of the Council on Foreign Relations. The country is still too unstable for most oil companies to invest in, she said.

[Tortures Dionysos]

Ok... so...

1) They are getting cheap gas, and we are paying the difference. Right?

2) If this is true, then knowing this does what...???... piss me off.... but I can't do anything about it. Pisses me off more.

3) They drive like shite. Sounds like India. Honestly, most 3rd adn 4th (???) world countries have very few rules of the road... and most don't follow the few rules that are in place.

[DJ Cubano]

Originally posted by Karen EpiK
very few rules of the road... and most don't follow the few rules that are in place.

hahahah nice I'd fit right in

[MysteryMeat]

Originally posted by Karen EpiK
3) They drive like shite. Sounds like India. Honestly, most 3rd adn 4th (???) world countries have very few rules of the road... and most don't follow the few rules that are in place.

How do you know they drive like shit? I don't see anything in that article that points to that viewpoint. Have you been to Iraq?


BTW.... 4th world countries are 'undiscovered' ones, i.e. some presumed tribes in rainforests and such. I don't think they have too much to worry about concerning traffic laws.

[Tortures Dionysos]

Originally posted by MysteryMeat
[How do you know they drive like shit? I don't see anything in that article that points to that viewpoint. Have you been to Iraq?

Iraq has no sales tax, no registration, no license plates and no auto insurance. Some would argue there are no rules of the road. Cars barrel the wrong way on the highway. They swoop into surprise U-turns. They ignore traffic signals.

Per the American standard of driving this = driving like shite.

BTW.... 4th world countries are 'undiscovered' ones, i.e. some presumed tribes in rainforests and such. I don't think they have too much to worry about concerning traffic laws.

And I did put a "?" behind 4th world countries. I put that, because as far as I see it... Iraq's standard of living does not meet what can be found in some of the 3rd world countries I have been too... so I classified it lower... eh.

[Tortures Dionysos]

Fourth World Countries:

Here is a cut/paste job that gives more details on 4th world countries.

http://www.cwis.org/fourthw.html

an excerpt from CWIS Ocasional Paper #18,
The Meaning of 'Nation' and 'State' in the Fourth World
by Dr. Richard Griggs
University of Capetown
© 1992 Center for World Indigenous Studies
Fourth World:

Nations forcefully incorporated into states which maintain a distinct political culture but are internationally unrecognized.
A convenient shorthand for the Fourth World would be internationally unrecognized nations. These are the 5,000 to 6000 nations representing a third of the world's population whose descendants maintain a distinct political culture within the states which claim their territories. In all cases the Fourth World nation is engaged in a struggle to maintain or gain some degree of sovereignty over their national homeland.
After World War II the core of the state system split into two large geopolitical blocs of associated interests. A Euro-American bloc of states with political and economic ties came to be called the First World. Japan was later added to this monopoly of power. The term Second World distinguished the First World from the other geopolitical bloc: the communist-socialist states including the Soviet Union China, North Korea, North Vietnam and until recently, Eastern Europe. The states not aligned with either bloc of geopolitical power were regarded as the "Third World." These newly decolonized states were also the economically disadvantaged ones having just emerged from centuries of colonialism. Their situation of economic dependency on the First and Second Worlds (neo-colonialism and debt-burdens) is today the more commonplace connotation for the term Third World. The ancient nations from which the patchwork quilt of states was stitched have no internationally recognized sovereignty but their geopolitical force through self- determination movements is challenging the entire state system. Thus a new term has developed since the 1970s, the Fourth World.

The term Fourth World first came into wide use in 1974 with the publication of Shuswap Chief George Manuel's: The Fourth World: An Indian Reality. Manuel thought of the Fourth World as the "indigenous peoples descended from a country's aboriginal population and who today are completely or partly deprived of the right to their own territories and its riches." (40) This is a valid definition. However, prejudices and misconceptions regarding the terms "aboriginal" and "indigenous" abound including an exclusive association with New World "Indians." In this manner, many indigenous nations in Europe, the Soviet Union, the Middle and Far East, such as Wales, Catalonia, Brittany, Flanders, Bavaria, Slovakia, Slovenia, Armenia, Georgia, Palestine, Kurdistan, Khalistan, Balochistan, Tibet, and hundreds more are forgotten or discarded. This is particularly unfortunate in the case of Europe because so much can be learned from examining the experience of Fourth World nations at the core of the European-derived system of states. Thus, we find the definition of "internationally unrecognized nations" precise, concise and less geographically limiting.

A definition which is too broad to express the geopolitical situation of oppressed nations is offered by a number of ecological and political organizations associated with the Schumacherian "small is beautiful" school. Influenced by such thinkers and writers as Leopold Kohr, E. F. Schumacher, John Papworth, and Kirkpatrick Sale, these groups are part of a movement toward decentralization and self-determination but do not share the same genesis as Fourth World nations. Hence, the definition of the Fourth World offered by such publications as the Fourth World News and Resurgence, the Journal of the Fourth World concerns the advocacy of more human scale institutions of any kind:

[The] Fourth World embraces small nations of under twelve million inhabitants, groups working for their autonomy and independence at all levels from the neighborhood to the nation, minority groups whether ethnic, linguistic, cultural or religious, and those in the fields of peace action, ecology, economics, energy resources, women's liberation, and the whole spectrum of the alternative movement, who are struggling against the giantism of the institutions of today's mass societies and for a human scale and a non-centralized, multi-cellular, power-dispersed world order. (41)
This definition of the Fourth World is far too broad and inclusive to be useful in explaining the historical expansion of states and the state-nation conflict it engendered. Clearly, the Fourth World by either definition is the outcome of a struggle between the forces of centralization and decentralization. However, this is an ancient struggle which is unrelated to many of the contemporary social movements listed in that definition. Kohr, Schumacher, Papworth and Sale all show a sympathy for Fourth World nations but are more concerned with the broader question of the size of states and what can be done to scale them down. That state expansion is a problem generated by the conquest of nations is not always explicit in their literature.
The Fourth World has also been used to designate:


the poorest, and most undeveloped states of the world;
any oppressed or underprivileged victim of a state.
R.G. Ridker used it in the first manner in the 1976 publication Changing Resource Problems of the Fourth World.(42) The use of this term has gained some currency among economists but has no relevance for the internationally unrecognized nations discussed here. In 1972, Ben Whittaker of the Minority Rights Group applied the term Fourth World to refer to any oppressed group, failing to distinguish between true ethnic and social minorities and historic nations.(43) Noel Dyck's 1985 publication, Indigenous Peoples and the Nation- State continued to support the conception of the Fourth World as "minority population that have no hope of ever prevailing within their respective national societies... [and] suffer from economic subjugation." (44) Janusz Bugajski's 1991 publication, Fourth World Conflicts, reiterates the economistic, victimized image of the Fourth World:
...a whole range of tribal and peasant societies that... share a number of attributes, including a low level of political and economic integration in the state system, an inferior political status, and an underprivileged economic position.(45)
Whittaker, Dyck, and Bugajski employ the term in a manner which presents the Fourth World as "not so much discreet groups of people or as specified societies" but as "complex political, economic and ideological relations" within the state.(46) This suggests weakness, victimization, and a convenient abstraction for seemingly invisible, intangible, immobile societies. The geopolitical force internationally unrecognized nations represent is totally unaccounted for. These are peoples who through both peaceful and military means are challenging the entire state system. Furthermore, not all Fourth World nations are "economically underprivileged." Some are the most economically advanced regions in their respective states such as Croatia and Slovenia in Yugoslavia, the three Baltic States in the Soviet Union (Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia), Catalonia in Spain, or Wurtemburg in Germany.
Finally, mixing minorities, tribes and ethnic groups in a single category with nations results in a definition too broad to account for the common historical experience of internationally unrecognized nations. The inadequacy of these terms and others are considered below.

[MysteryMeat]

Originally posted by Karen EpiK

Per the American standard of driving this = driving like shite.

foot ---> mouth. Missed that part

And I did put a "?" behind 4th world countries. I put that, because as far as I see it... Iraq's standard of living does not meet what can be found in some of the 3rd world countries I have been too... so I classified it lower... eh. [/B]

See > here < and > here < (first link is a definition of the 4 worlds, and the 2nd is a list of 3rd World countries).

[johnny861]

Originally posted by Karen EpiK
[B

And I did put a "?" behind 4th world countries. I put that, because as far as I see it... Iraq's standard of living does not meet what can be found in some of the 3rd world countries I have been too... so I classified it lower... eh. [/B]

Be found in some or all?

What do you use as a gage of standard of living in 3rd World Countries?

When did you go to Iraq last and how did it compare and contrast to the other third world countries you've been to. Also, which 3rd world countries are you comparing it to?

[johnny861]

This made me laugh

...said Hashim, 26, topping up the tank on his beat-up 1983 Volkswagen.


LOL, How you gonna call a person's car all beat-up. I'd be like "WTF bitches, why you talking shit about mah car! I know it's not a fucking Audi like you drive, but it gets me places."

[Hey Bubu]

An "e-semantics" war, YAY


Anyway, yup besides bitching and voting there's not much we can do about it.

[Tortures Dionysos]

Originally posted by johnny861
Be found in some or all?

What do you use as a gage of standard of living in 3rd World Countries?

When did you go to Iraq last and how did it compare and contrast to the other third world countries you've been to. Also, which 3rd world countries are you comparing it to?

Ok, I have not been to Iraq. I have only see the pictures on the TV. Which have been PLENTY over the past year. I think we can all get a general idea of life in Iraq by looking at the pictures.

I have been to the following third world countries: Mexico (more than 10 times, and I was married there), India (2 times, total of 5 weeks both trips together), and Costa Rica (1 time, 1 week).

How many have you been to?

So, I compared what I saw of Iraq via pictures... to what I have see in the other 3, third world countries I have been to.

[MysteryMeat]

Originally posted by Karen EpiK
Ok, I have not been to Iraq. I have only see the pictures on the TV. Which have been PLENTY over the past year. I think we can all get a general idea of life in Iraq by looking at the pictures.

I have been to the following third world countries: Mexico (more than 10 times, and I was married there), India (2 times, total of 5 weeks both trips together), and Costa Rica (1 time, 1 week).

How many have you been to?

So, I compared what I saw of Iraq via pictures... to what I have see in the other 3, third world countries I have been to.

There is an actual, poli/social-scientific method of world classification. Economics and quality of life are not the only factors. For example: tribal and nomadic cultures are considered 'Fourth World' whereas Iraq (along with very poor nations in Africa, etc.) are considered Third World. Many Indians (Western, not Eastern) live a much better life than I'm sure the Iraqis have right now.

[Tortures Dionysos]

Originally posted by MysteryMeat
There is an actual, poli/social-scientific method of world classification. Economics and quality of life are not the only factors. For example: tribal and nomadic cultures are considered 'Fourth World' whereas Iraq (along with very poor nations in Africa, etc.) are considered Third World. Many Indians (Western, not Eastern) live a much better life than I'm sure the Iraqis have right now.

EXACTLY.

Which is why I said:

And I did put a "?" behind 4th world countries. I put that, because as far as I see it... Iraq's standard of living does not meet what can be found in some of the 3rd world countries I have been too... so I classified it lower... eh.

So... why is Johnny saying:

Be found in some or all?

What do you use as a gage of standard of living in 3rd World Countries?

When did you go to Iraq last and how did it compare and contrast to the other third world countries you've been to. Also, which 3rd world countries are you comparing it to?

[johnny861]

Well, If your daily life included hanging around the US Military when bombs go off, then yea, I would say it was a pretty bleak view.


I've been to Mexico, Zimbabwe, Mosembique and though its not considered a third world country, if you've seen a lot of the Townships in South Africa, you'd think it was a 3rd world country.

I can't say they are either better or worse than Iraq. For one, I haven't been to Iraq. I would it would also require some indepth research into social lifestyle of these countries citizenry and their cost of living factor before providing a better comparison. It's like trying to compare the US and Germany in suggesting which country is better "rated". Based on what? Cost of living is much different, you would have to take into account many additional factors before considering which country might be better off than the other at that point in time.


I would think it to be hard to really gage conditions from country to country merely by looking at it on TV or on tour.

Also, I certainly understand that one can develop a bias for or against a country when they live or visit said country.

I love South Africa. I've definitely considered it a place I would most likely retire to, or possibly move back to if the crime drops.

But its hard for me to compare and contrast it with another country outside of my bias.


Especially if the other country I've only seen through TV.

It's like my friends from Sweden once asked me about the US. He asked is America really like what is shown on the TV Shows COPS and Jerry Springer?

I thought he was joking at first, but he was really convinced that everybody over here rolls around with weapons and are drug addicts or drunkened ignorant rednecks that sleep with eachother's family members etc....


He's mentioned a few times that I don't seem American to him...

With his bias, I take that as a compliment.

[DJPePe]

Karen, no offense but you're ignorant.

How can you say Iraq is fourth-world, when it has a high literacy rate and a once-advanced infrastructure?