Why can't Israel build their wall?

[bfp]

Are you kidding me? Is there a problem with building a wall to protect yourself from homicide bombers? It seems to have minimized the bombings in Israel as of late, so why not finish the wall? It seems to me that there is a bias against Israel no matter what they do.

Since the UN and the EU are so worried about some country building a fence, why not jump on India for building their 1 Billion dollar fence that shuts off the entire muslim country of Bangladesh? That move alone has been much more devestating to the impoverished muslims in Bangladesh than the West Bank.

But hey, no one obviously seems to care about that. If it involves Israel, it's time to act.

[Adam D]

Originally posted by bfp
Are you kidding me? Is there a problem with building a wall to protect yourself from homicide bombers? It seems to have minimized the bombings in Israel as of late, so why not finish the wall? It seems to me that there is a bias against Israel no matter what they do.

Since the UN and the EU are so worried about some country building a fence, why not jump on India for building their 1 Billion dollar fence that shuts off the entire muslim country of Bangladesh? That move alone has been much more devestating to the impoverished muslims in Bangladesh than the West Bank.

But hey, no one obviously seems to care about that. If it involves Israel, it's time to act.

Because it's a wall of apartheid that violates the boundaries of a number of treaties.

[USAcommitteeX]

Anti-terrorist fence cuts Samaria-based attacks by 90%

A comparison of the number of attacks within Israel carried out by Samaria-based terrorists after the anti-terrorist fence was built, and the number of attacks carried out by the same terrorist groups before the building of the fence, reveals a drop of some 90 percent in the ability of these terrorist groups to perpetrate attacks within Israel.


In the 11 months between the erection of the first segment at the beginning of August 2003 and the end of June 2004, the Samaria-based terrorist groups have succeeded in carrying out only three atrocities within Israel. All three occurred in the first half of 2003, during which 26 Israelis were murdered and 76 wounded. (In two of the cases, the terrorists infiltrated via areas in Samaria where the fence was not yet completed. In the third, a female terrorist entered through the Barta'a crossing using a Jordanian passport.)


In contrast, during the 34 months from the beginning of the violence in September 2000 until the construction of the first continuous segment of the anti-terrorist fence at the end of July 2003, between Salem and Elkana in Samaria, Samaria-based terrorists carried out 73 atrocities (suicide bombings, shootings, car bombings) within Israel (including Jerusalem) in which 293 Israelis were killed and 1950 wounded.


Of these 73 attacks, 32 in which 145 Israelis were murdered and 723 wounded were carried out after the beginning of Operation Defensive Shield (31 March 2003), when IDF units were deployed throughout Judea and Samaria.


A comparison of the above data shows a decrease of slightly more than 90% in the number of attacks: from an average of 26 attacks a year before the fence, to three attacks after erection of the anti-terrorist fence. This means a decrease of more than 70% in the number of Israelis murdered: from an average of 103 slain per year before the fence to 28 after erection of the fence. Similarly, this means a drop of more than 85% in the number of wounded: from an average of 688 a year before the fence to 83 wounded per year after it was built.


While the number of attacks dropped sharply, the number of attempted attacks that were foiled in various stages of preparation since the erection of the anti-terrorist fence in August 2003 remained high. During this period, the security forces prevented dozens of attacks by Samaria-based terrorist groups in the final stages of preparation. As a result of the arrests of terrorists and heads of cells, 24 explosive belts and bombs were discovered.


The conclusion is inescapable that a major factor in the sharp drop in the number of attacks carried out in Israel by Samaria-based terrorists in the past few months is the effect of the anti-terrorist fence on their operational patterns. This is in addition to the various preventive actions taken by the army in Judea and Samaria, particularly since Operation Defensive Shield.


The success of the anti-terrorist fence in Samaria means that the launching point for terrorists has been moved to Judea. In the last few months, Judea – where there is not yet a continuous fence – has become the main base for dispatching terrorists (including Samaria-based terrorists) into Israel. In more than half of the dozens of attacks-in-planning that were foiled since the erection of the anti-terrorist fence, the terrorists intended to infiltrate Israel by way of Judea, usually via Jerusalem and Ramallah.


Despite their efforts, all of the attempts by Samaria-based terrorists to infiltrate Israel via Judea since the erection of the anti-terrorist fence have been thwarted by the security forces.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/About+the+...90+percent.htm

[Xodiac]

Are they building the fence along disputed territory? How do they determine who is allowed to pass though?

[Krash]

How would you like it if Mexico built a wall in YOUR territory?

lol @ homicide bombers

[USAcommitteeX]

Are they building the fence along disputed territory? How do they determine who is allowed to pass though?

It runs on the green line which was the border before the six day war then Israel took control of E. Jerusalem, Gaza, and Golan Heights. Part of the fence did cut off Palestinian towns but there are designated areas where they can cross but certain areas are off limits ie.settlements if they get to close or try to seak in then they will be shot on sight.

How would you like it if Mexico built a wall in YOUR territory?

If the United States were sending in waves of suicide bombers then I would understand why Mexico would build a wall. Krash...how about getting the Palestinian Authority to enforce laws, and not allow the terrorist to make bombs pick targets recruit potential shahids? The fence would have saved lives on both sides and if it comes down then there will be even more incursions into the Palestinian territories, the IDF will act decisively since Arafat isn't up to the task. This will be brought up at the UN next week and to no suprise a US veto.

[Krash]

Originally posted by USAcommitteeX
Krash...how about getting the Palestinian Authority to enforce laws....

How can they do that when their infrastructure is regulalry destroyed?

How can they do that when, allegedly, the very people responsible for these attacks are the ones in charge?

I don't have a problem with the wall, per se, I DO have a problem with it being built in PALESTINIAN territory (as recognised by the US previously, and the UN).

You say that you wouldn't mind mexico building a wall in YOUR territory? I call bullshit. You would expect them to build it in THEIR territory.

[USAcommitteeX]

How can they do that when their infrastructure is regulalry destroyed?

Arafat still has control over his 20,000 man police force, the Palestinians don't have any problem putting so called collaborators on trial then shooting them an hour later in front of thousands. The fence infringes upon the Palestinians right to send suicide bombers into Israel. What's next? Will the World Court tell China to tear down the Great Wall? It was built for similar purposes.

[Krash]

Originally posted by USAcommitteeX
Arafat still has control over his 20,000 man police force, the Palestinians don't have any problem putting so called collaborators on trial then shooting them an hour later in front of thousands. The fence infringes upon the Palestinians right to send suicide bombers into Israel. What's next? Will the World Court tell China to tear down the Great Wall? It was built for similar purposes.

I look forward to your retort to the rest of my post.

[Adam D]

Originally posted by USAcommitteeX
It runs on the green line which was the border before the six day war then Israel took control of E. Jerusalem, Gaza, and Golan Heights. Part of the fence did cut off Palestinian towns but there are designated areas where they can cross but certain areas are off limits ie.settlements if they get to close or try to seak in then they will be shot on sight. If the United States were sending in waves of suicide bombers then I would understand why Mexico would build a wall. Krash...how about getting the Palestinian Authority to enforce laws, and not allow the terrorist to make bombs pick targets recruit potential shahids? The fence would have saved lives on both sides and if it comes down then there will be even more incursions into the Palestinian territories, the IDF will act decisively since Arafat isn't up to the task. This will be brought up at the UN next week and to no suprise a US veto.

You're still missing his question. Basically it would be a similar situation if Mexico decided to build a wall from the Pacific coast from San Francisco across the midwest to Houston to "defend" themselves. Would you accept that as a legitimate demarkation of borders? I doubt it.

It's not the existence of the wall that is disputed so much as the way it is being built and where it is being built. Wouldn't it make the most sense for Israel to keep all of the Palestineans on the same side of the wall and block off all of their land from the rest of Israel? Wouldn't it make the most sense to build the wall incredibly high and thick, rather than low to the point that people can hop over it?

The wall has little to do with terrorism defense, and everything to do with redefining the borders.

[Xodiac]

The fence infringes upon the Palestinians right to send suicide bombers into Israel

Woah, there, you had better be kidding with that one.

Israel is "damned if they do, damned if they don't" for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that they are US-supported nuclear power which acts upon aggression in a region inhospitable to their religion at this time. The Israeli gov't acts in abbrogation of numerous treaties, universally accepted human rights declarations, and common decency. On the other hand, Palestinian insurgents continue to plague the region with suicide attacks.

Both sides are chocked full of bad people. The difference is one side has millions of dollars in backing and military equipment from the dominant power of the world. Given an inherent concern for "the underdog" in a majority rule democratic republic such as ours, many people will continue to be concerned about the plight of the Palestinians. I am included in this.

I am pro-Israeli as a secular state, but the whole Zionism thing goes a bit far. I feel the same way, truly, of the Islamist dictatorships and other brutal regimes.

They need to kiss and makeup, the US needs to stop funding Israel, a major coalition needs to be developed to bring stability and peace to the region, and a SIGNIFICANT non-violence movement needs to be bolstered by the world-wide academic and non-violence community for Palestine. Unfortunately, the leaders of such a movement in Palestine (one which is against violence from both sides and seeks a respectful and timely development of Palestine as a nation-state as agreed upon by the UN nearly 50 yrs ago after decades of violent oppression from Jewish immigrants) have in the past been beaten bloodily by the IDF at various checkpoints. To reiterate, a doctor known throughout the diplomatic community and widely respected had his knee BROKEN at a checkpoint in the area where he was born just after meeting with UN diplomats on the subject of some semblance of Palestinian statehood. Actions as this are fucking disgusting and are in essence similar to the treatment of Kurds by Saddam's regime.

Overall, it is a complex issue which DEMANDS intensive and balanced focus from the US, the likes of which the Bush Administration has openly distanced itself from. Either we give money to one or the other side and participate more fully in the situation, or we pull-the-fuck-out and let happen what will when Israel continues to act in direct violation of 50+ UN resolutions and actively eludes attempts by weapons inspectors to further document the nation's weapons of mass destruction programs.


Sound familiar?

To comment further on the underdog support of Palestine, I feel personally that people who observe a somewhat more balanced stance on the issue tend to be more vocal for the side which is getting the least coverage. Though these boards tend to have a larger number of people speaking out in favor of Palestine (or generally against American interests), I feel it is more a result of imbalanced media coverage than it is a result of militant Islamist insurgency in our raver ranks.

As for the wall, I think anything of that nature should come in part with an economic stimulus package for Palestine and should follow more closely the original pre-67 boundaries and not deny a traditional livelihood to thousands of Palestinians. This is all pretty difficult to do in a country that never really declared official borders.

And then there are the Jewish settlers who don't want the wall being built in some places because it means that Sharon would follow through on a pullout of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The issue? They want THAT land for themselves as well!

Blah.

BTW: For a powerful online journalist's account of the border, check out http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/fe...ael/intro.html