Veterans Felt Betrayed

[bfp]

Some Veterans Still Bitter at Talk of Crimes
Senator's Activism Made A Lasting Impression

By Josh White and Brian Faler
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, August 21, 2004; Page A01

William Ferris was confined to a bed in a military hospital, his severed sciatic nerve reminding him of the attack on his Navy Swift boat in a Vietnamese river. A shot from a recoilless rifle had pierced the boat's pilothouse and then Ferris's body, leaving him in constant agony.

But it was what appeared on Ferris's television that really pained him. John F. Kerry, a decorated fellow Swift boat driver, was testifying before Congress about atrocities in Vietnam, throwing his medals away, speaking at antiwar rallies. Ferris, who was trying to rehabilitate himself back to active duty, felt betrayed.

"I was livid," Ferris, 57, of Long Island, N.Y., said yesterday, recalling how his dislike for the presidential candidate began in the early 1970s. "I said to myself at the time, this is someone who is using his experience for his own purposes, and this was long before he ever ran for office. I thought he was using, actually manipulating, what he had done in Vietnam. Just like he's doing now."

Ferris is one of 250 Swift boat veterans who in May signed an open letter to the Massachusetts senator asking for full disclosure of his military records, specifically focusing on events during a four-month tour in Vietnam for which Kerry was awarded medals for bravery in combat. The veterans group -- Swift Boat Veterans for Truth -- has criticized Kerry for using his military experience as a centerpiece of his presidential campaign, arguing that the Democrat has exaggerated his experiences at war for political gain.

"I thought he was just another hot dog just trying to build his reputation," said Wayland Holloway of Searcy, Ark., who says he crossed paths with Kerry in 1969, one day before the future presidential candidate pulled Jim Rassmann from a river. "The first time I met John Kerry, frankly, I thought he was a very disingenuous person."

But while the group appears to be rooted in Republican politics and big money, several veterans who signed the letter said in interviews yesterday that they are casually into politics and generally are not convinced that Kerry is lying, but they do not like the candidate because of his polarizing speeches in the 1970s.

James Zumwalt, who attended the group's first news conference in May, said he joined the group solely to set the record straight about the allegations of war crimes included in "Tour of Duty," a Douglas Brinkley book about Kerry's Vietnam service. Now, Zumwalt says, "I kind of have mixed feelings" about the tone of the group's attacks. "I would not try to question the awards given to him or his service."

Many of the veterans, scattered across the country, learned about the anti-Kerry group through friends, at reunions for Swift boat vets or on the Internet, and most have limited their involvement to signing the single letter to Kerry. Some say they voted for Al Gore in the last election but are still deeply hurt by what Kerry did when he returned from battle.

Kenneth Knipple of Erie, Mich., who served three years in Vietnam, backed Gore in 2000 but joined the anti-Kerry movement after leaning about it from a fellow vet. "For him to be wounded that many times and lie as many times as he did, I don't want him to be president," said Knipple, who served on Swift boats, but never with Kerry.

"I wasn't there at the time that happened," said Tony Gisclair, a veteran from Poplarville, Miss., who signed the letter, referring to Kerry's combat in Vietnam. "But look at what the man said about us when he came back."

Tony Snesko, a veteran in Washington, D.C., said he was "devastated" by Kerry's antiwar efforts, prompting him to sign on to the group's anti-Kerry message.

Snesko said to see Kerry elected would give credence to the senator's claims that those who fought in Vietnam were reckless baby-killers: "At the point that he might possibly take over this country as president -- it would validate everything that he said about us and would make it appear true."

The effort has gained momentum in the past month, as the veterans group began airing a controversial television commercial questioning Kerry's version of his service and asking him to disclose his military records. The Kerry camp has been attacking Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, calling it a front for President Bush's reelection efforts.

The May 4 letter arose out of a broader effort coordinated by a longtime Kerry foe and Republican supporter, Texas lawyer John E. O'Neill, also a Swift boat veteran. At the behest of the Nixon White House in 1971, O'Neill debated Kerry on television about the war.

O'Neill, who co-wrote "Unfit for Command," an anti-Kerry book published this week, gathered other Swift boat veterans to start the group and allowed word to spread. The group's core membership -- which has met three times and has had several conference calls -- includes a seven-member steering committee and about 10 other members.

"We really got this thing going in the hopes the Democratic Party would listen to us and perhaps nominate someone else," said Bill Lannom of Grinnell, Iowa, whom O'Neill recruited onto the steering committee. Lannom bristles at the thought of Kerry being elected to the presidency. "He's lying, and he's betraying us," Lannom said. "He's telling untruths about us and his character. He's talking about atrocities that didn't happen. And then he's using that same experience to promote himself. He can't have it both ways."

Unlike casual participants, the most committed members say they are driven by desire to expose Kerry as a fraud who doctored his record to win medals and an early release from Vietnam. But they are a minority in the larger group.

John L. Kipp of Brown County, Ind., said he learned about the letter to Kerry while surfing the Web and added his signature because he does not believe that Kerry is telling the whole truth. Kipp, who commanded a Swift boat in Vietnam, doubts that Kerry would have left his boat to attack an enemy, as he has asserted. "It really bothered me when he started to ballyhoo his war record," said Kipp, 62. "You don't turn on your comrades and say these terrible, awful things that I know I had never seen. There's something about keeping faith with those you served with."

Don Hammer, a veteran from Bloomington, Ill., said he admires Kerry. Hammer also said he believes Kerry was within his rights to speak out against the war. But still, Hammer has questions. "My goal is to tell Mr. Kerry to open up his service record," he said. "I don't know what happened. Nobody else knows what happened."

Staff writer Jim VandeHei and research editor Margot Williams contributed to this report.

[Jimbo]

John Kerry was another "Serpico," who had no problem exposing a few bad apples, even if it risked tarnishing the image of whole batch and being resented by many of their peers. To bad we have some shameless veterans fighting on our side that believe that committed atrocities should be swept under the rug. They are a disgrace to this country and everybody who died fighting for more just and free world.

On those issues, John Kerry and Frank Serpico are heroes in my book.
http://www.italianrap.com/italam/her...k_serpico.html

[transparentaura]

Its pretty much accepted that atrocities were commited in Vietnam, (Mai Lai etc..) and while these men feel betrayed, speaking out in condemnation of war crimes that besmirch the name of our country and its soldiers is hardly something to be ashamed of. Seems to me that is the patriotic thing to do. Had he remained silent, I'd wager that those attacking him for his testimony then, would be calling him a "baby killer " now.I was wondering if anyone can tell me where I can find any quotes from Mr Kerry referring to his fellow soldiers as "baby killers" ?

Originally Posted by transparentaura

Its pretty much accepted that atrocities were commited in Vietnam, (Mai Lai etc..) and while these men feel betrayed, speaking out in condemnation of war crimes that besmirch the name of our country and its soldiers is hardly something to be ashamed of.

The problem is that the testimony Kerry related (testimony gathered at the Winter Soldier Investigation) was mostly untrue.

Secondly, Kerry claims he witnessed war crimes - which means he failed to do his duty and report them at that time. His failure to do his duty then permitted more alleged crimes to occur.

Third, he claimed he committed crimes - does this make him a war criminal?

Originally Posted by transparentaura

Seems to me that is the patriotic thing to do. Had he remained silent, I'd wager that those attacking him for his testimony then, would be calling him a "baby killer " now.

Quite unlikely. If nothing else, it is now terribly unfashionable to attack soldiers and call them such names.

Originally Posted by transparentaura

I was wondering if anyone can tell me where I can find any quotes from Mr Kerry referring to his fellow soldiers as "baby killers" ?

Not sure if he ever used that term - but his senate testimony is easy to find - go look it up. (I posted links several times, as well as links to Kerry's 1971 debate with O'Neill)

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by xiannaix

Third, he claimed he committed crimes - does this make him a war criminal?

You are twisting the facts in a major way. John Kerry said he was ordered to fire on a village because their were enemy fighters attacking our troops. He followed orders and then discovered that he had been ordered to fire upon civilian targets.

This has gotten so out of hand it's getting ridiculous and the fact that Bush-supporters will not stop hammering this dead issue can only hurt his campaign. The accusations of Kerry being a murderer and even shooting himself to get a Purple Heart are so unbelievably disrespectful and over-the-line that it brings light to how corrupt the GOP has become. Kerry will not lose a single vote because of this Republican slanderfest, but I believe some people in the middle will get sick of hearing these vicious puked repeating the same filth about a decorated war veteran.

[bfp]

Originally Posted by Ryan

You are twisting the facts in a major way. John Kerry said he was ordered to fire on a village because their were enemy fighters attacking our troops. He followed orders and then discovered that he had been ordered to fire upon civilian targets.

This has gotten so out of hand it's getting ridiculous and the fact that Bush-supporters will not stop hammering this dead issue can only hurt his campaign. The accusations of Kerry being a murderer and even shooting himself to get a Purple Heart are so unbelievably disrespectful and over-the-line that it brings light to how corrupt the GOP has become. Kerry will not lose a single vote because of this Republican slanderfest, but I believe some people in the middle will get sick of hearing these vicious puked repeating the same filth about a decorated war veteran.

Now you know how sick the right was regarding the constant garbage coming from Al Gore and the Moveon group. Have you noticed how the media is portraying these ads as a negative for Bush, even though the same media figures were questioning Bush's national guard service a few months ago? The same media figures let Gore get away with preaching negative accusations against Bush and Rumsfeld at several Moveon gatherings. The bias in the media is so obvious. They wait for a rebuttal from the Kerry camp and then start hounding on Bush. This is unbelievable. I can't believe what im seeing in the news at the moment.

And you say we are over the line Ryan? The GOP is corrupt? Ryan, I don't see how anyone can take you seriously now. You want to talk about slander?

You just made a complete ass out of yourself.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by bfp

Now you know how sick the right was regarding the constant garbage coming from Al Gore and the Moveon group. Have you noticed how the media is portraying these ads as a negative for Bush, even though the same media figures were questioning Bush's national guard service a few months ago? The same media figures let Gore get away with preaching negative accusations against Bush and Rumsfeld at several Moveon gatherings. The bias in the media is so obvious. They wait for a rebuttal from the Kerry camp and then start hounding on Bush. This is unbelievable. I can't believe what im seeing in the news at the moment.

And you say we are over the line Ryan? The GOP is corrupt? Ryan, I don't see how anyone can take you seriously now. You want to talk about slander?

You just made a complete ass out of yourself.

1) I am not talking about Gore. I was not even a Gore supporter. Stop trying to sway the topic.

2) The attacks on Bush's service record came before Kerry was even nominated.

3) Those questions were just that - a call for Bush to provide evidence to back up his claims. This is a tad different than spreading a blatant lie that Kerry "shot himself" to get a Purple Heart. It's laughable.

4) I didn't say I wanted the ads to stop. I said they will probably only hurt Bush. This is my own opinion and is opposite from what I have heard in the mainstream media. You're just plain paranoid.

5) I didn't say I was "tired" of this, I said it's ridiculous and IT IS ridiculous. Here you all are two months before the election trailing in almost every poll and you all focus 95% of your effort and concern on dismantling the military record of a verteran with three Purple Hearts. First, the neocon pukes in the media drop these ideas into your head, and next thing you know you all have ten threads on the rave board repeating everything you just heard like parrots. Nevermind the disaster you all are holding up as the head of your party, nor the issues, nor Bush's own unproven and shady history - you all go after a decorated verteran's military career which ended 30 years ago.

6) It would not even be possible for me to make an ass out of myself in a conversation with you.

Originally Posted by Ryan

You are twisting the facts in a major way. John Kerry said he was ordered to fire on a village because their were enemy fighters attacking our troops. He followed orders and then discovered that he had been ordered to fire upon civilian targets.

This has gotten so out of hand it's getting ridiculous and the fact that Bush-supporters will not stop hammering this dead issue can only hurt his campaign. The accusations of Kerry being a murderer and even shooting himself to get a Purple Heart are so unbelievably disrespectful and over-the-line that it brings light to how corrupt the GOP has become. Kerry will not lose a single vote because of this Republican slanderfest, but I believe some people in the middle will get sick of hearing these vicious puked repeating the same filth about a decorated war veteran.

I looked again - he said he committed "atrocities"

It's his own record testifying that he's running from here - not some invention.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by xiannaix

I looked again - he said he committed "atrocities"

Atrocities that he was unaware of and was ordered by his commanding officer to commit. Do you think he should have disobeyed his commanding officers on a battlefield? Furthermore, do you think it would have been more noble of him to just keep his mouth shut about what he was ordered to do?

Originally Posted by Ryan

Atrocities that he was unaware of and was ordered by his commanding officer to commit. Do you think he should have disobeyed his commanding officers on a battlefield? Furthermore, do you think it would have been more noble of him to just keep his mouth shut about what he was ordered to do?

Hmmm - he committed atrocities he was unaware of. How can he claim he did somethig he was unaware of?

[question]

Originally Posted by Ryan

You are twisting the facts in a major way. John Kerry said he was ordered to fire on a village because their were enemy fighters attacking our troops. He followed orders and then discovered that he had been ordered to fire upon civilian targets

Originally Posted by xiannaix

Hmmm - he committed atrocities he was unaware of. How can he claim he did somethig he was unaware of?

Seems he found out after the fact.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by xiannaix

Hmmm - he committed atrocities he was unaware of. How can he claim he did somethig he was unaware of?

He said he was ordered to fire on a village and he did. When his unit went into the village later on, they discovered that they had fired on civilians. Oh, forget it. It wouldn't matter to you all no matter how well he served or if he didn't serve at all - you would figure out some nasty angle to spin it on. I guess it's the nature of the beast. Keep talking about it if it makes you feel better about the lump you guys are running. I guess you need all the help you can get, right?

[bfp]

1) I am not talking about Gore. I was not even a Gore supporter. Stop trying to sway the topic.

I brought up Gore because you mentioned that the GOP is corrupt - as if the left isn't.

2) The attacks on Bush's service record came before Kerry was even nominated.

Does that even matter?

3) Those questions were just that - a call for Bush to provide evidence to back up his claims. This is a tad different than spreading a blatant lie that Kerry "shot himself" to get a Purple Heart. It's laughable.

No one said that he shot himself. He suffered from self-inflicted wounds. Dropping grenades in rice barrels and having the grenade explode - sending rice in his ass for example. Does that deserve a purple heart? Because he got one from doing just that.

4) I didn't say I wanted the ads to stop. I said they will probably only hurt Bush. This is my own opinion and is opposite from what I have heard in the mainstream media. You're just plain paranoid.

Im going off of what I hear on the alphabet channels in the morning, and in the evening. And no, im not paranoid. Just because you do not know things that I do, doesn't make me paranoid.

5) I didn't say I was "tired" of this, I said it's ridiculous and IT IS ridiculous. Here you all are two months before the election trailing in almost every poll and you all focus 95% of your effort and concern on dismantling the military record of a verteran with three Purple Hearts. First, the neocon pukes in the media drop these ideas into your head, and next thing you know you all have ten threads on the rave board repeating everything you just heard like parrots. Nevermind the disaster you all are holding up as the head of your party, nor the issues, nor Bush's own unproven and shady history - you all go after a decorated verteran's military career which ended 30 years ago.

It's the decorations that are in question. He falsified several reports to get certain decorations. Neo-cons do not drop ideas into my head Ryan. That's out of the question. Im sorry that you don't understand that the media is lazy in it's reporting, and they're lazy in their observation to seek the actual truth in what is going on. When I have to track down stories and validated reports on the internet and when I see lazy reports on television going to millions of people on each and every alphabet channel, I have to say that the reports that continually come out as the way they do, has to be dangerous to an extent.

And let's get this straight. It's news because John Kerry made it news. The former swiftmates have a right to their opinion, and just because it's not what you want to hear - doesn't make it neo-con-nected.

6) It would not even be possible for me to make an ass out of myself in a conversation with you.

Whatever makes you fell better, pal.

Originally Posted by Ryan

He said he was ordered to fire on a village and he did. When his unit went into the village later on, they discovered that they had fired on civilians. Oh, forget it. It wouldn't matter to you all no matter how well he served or if he didn't serve at all - you would figure out some nasty angle to spin it on. I guess it's the nature of the beast. Keep talking about it if it makes you feel better about the lump you guys are running. I guess you need all the help you can get, right?

Ryan - Clearly, I cannot say I know Kerry did X and did not do Y - neither can you. My bitch is not what he did or didn't do in Viet Nam. I've just made note of his testimony in front of Congress. And, I have editorialized on it very little. I have no need to put "spin" on it - the record is there for everyone to read and come to their own conclusions.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by bfp

Just because you do not know things that I do, doesn't make me paranoid.

Oh, that one made my day.