Hydrogen vs. Petroleum

[Kyle Everett]

Id like to hear some of your views on this subject. Does anyone honestly believe we can shift from a petroleum economy to a hydrogen without causing complete political and economical chaos? I know the current downfalls of the hydrogen fuel cell as far as the need for a less expensive catalyst(the most effeciant right now, as far as I know, being platinum) to ionize the hydrogen in the fuel cell and the amount of energy needed to separate H from H20 to make hydrogen readily available. I know that on the surface these two set backs seem large, but do they really in the grand scheme of things? I mean, a clean fuel whose only by product is water and heat?

Personally I think the human race signed its own death warrant with the creation of the combustion engine. Hopefully someone will step up and prove me wrong.

[Adam D]

I think just like any other form of energy in history it will integrate itself into the energy supply and eventually replace petroleum as a fuel source over time, assuming it is capable of supplying a more efficient means of providing energy for all the energy demanded.

[Kyle Everett]

But shifting to hydrogen would change everything that we know now... It would be like the industrial revolution all over again... Do you think we, as humans, are a point that we could handle such an overhaul?

[SeanSparks]

Originally Posted by Kyle Everett

But shifting to hydrogen would change everything that we know now... It would be like the industrial revolution all over again... Do you think we, as humans, are a point that we could handle such an overhaul?

Not so much, hydrogen technology can be adapted to work with existing mechanisms operating off of direct fuel combustion.

-Sean

[dBu]

I think the point he is trying to make is that if we switched to all CLEAN fuels it would destroy the global economy as we know it. The middle east would become worthless and huge companies would be reduced to rubble, and it would drastically affect basically every facet of life as we know it today.

There is no way the oil companies and oil producing countries are ever going to allow that to happen. We have the technology right now to do it, but it won't happen. The big guys at the top don't want to lose all of their oil money and they are the ones that run the world so I just don't see it happening.

It's the same way with hemp/marijuana. The plant was used for virtually everything untill it was outlawed, and some say that the textile and logging industries played a crucial role in the government stomping out marijuana, why, beacuse it threatened the bottom line of huge companies.

[Kyle Everett]

Then WTF is the hold up??? Jebus this shit annoys me more than anything. Lets just destroy our planet for the highest bidder.

Problems....It takes energy to split hydrogen from oxygen. (Or is there another more efficient method of "distilling" hydrogen?) It will require either fossile fuel or nuclear energy to get hydrogen in a useable form. Hydrogen is volatile - see the Hindenburg.

However....It will eventually replace petroleum as our primary energy source for transportation - that'll happen when the costs of using hydrogen start to be competitive with the use of oil.

[dBu]

Originally Posted by xiannaix

However....It will eventually replace petroleum as our primary energy source for transportation - that'll happen when the costs of using hydrogen start to be competitive with the use of oil.

That sounds so good on paper, but do you really think it will ever happen. You know how fickle big corporations are with their money, you gotta make the shareholders happy, or else they take their money and split. I just don't see all of those companies giving up petroleum, that why oil and gas wells are popping up everywhere now, a new one goes up every week out by my apartment. They are looking for more oil, the Barnett Shale which covers most of the southern US is just now starting to be tapped and the derricks are going up every day.

I would love for us t run on clean power I just don;t ever see it happening in our lifetime. Perhaps our kids great grandkids will get to live in a clean environment,but for the time being I think we are just going to have to put up with it.

Originally Posted by BreakbeatJunkie

That sounds so good on paper, but do you really think it will ever happen. You know how fickle big corporations are with their money, you gotta make the shareholders happy, or else they take their money and split.

Corporate officers have a legal duty to make their shareholders happy... eg - make money for the shareholders. If officers violate their fiduciary duty they can be sued.

Originally Posted by BreakbeatJunkie

I just don't see all of those companies giving up petroleum, that why oil and gas wells are popping up everywhere now, a new one goes up every week out by my apartment. They are looking for more oil, the Barnett Shale which covers most of the southern US is just now starting to be tapped and the derricks are going up every day.

As oil sells for higher value - producers will look to produce from fields that are unprofitable at a lower price per barrell. That should not surprise you one bit.

Originally Posted by BreakbeatJunkie

I would love for us t run on clean power I just don;t ever see it happening in our lifetime. Perhaps our kids great grandkids will get to live in a clean environment,but for the time being I think we are just going to have to put up with it.

How do you plan to obtain this hydrogen? Buring it is clean... producing it is not. Is the process used to obtain hydrogen less harmful or more harmful than continuing to use petroleum? That's a pretty imoprtant question imo.

[dBu]

Originally Posted by xiannaix

How do you plan to obtain this hydrogen? Buring it is clean... producing it is not. Is the process used to obtain hydrogen less harmful or more harmful than continuing to use petroleum? That's a pretty imoprtant question imo.

I agree, that is a very important question. I did a google search for hydrogen production techniques and came across this page which has a brief synopsis of several different production methods, one of which relies on fossil fuels, but the other look very viable and really quite simple.

Click this Link for More Info

[Adam D]

We should all shift to cold fusion. Seriously.

[Kyle Everett]

Originally Posted by xiannaix

How do you plan to obtain this hydrogen? Buring it is clean... producing it is not. Is the process used to obtain hydrogen less harmful or more harmful than continuing to use petroleum? That's a pretty imoprtant question imo.

By using the same tactics that the natural gas drillers have been using. Pump the CO2 back into the ground. As far as obtaining it? Nuclear, hydro, geothermal, solar.... It has to happen, one way or another.

Originally Posted by Kyle Everett

By using the same tactics that the natural gas drillers have been using. Pump the CO2 back into the ground. As far as obtaining it? Nuclear, hydro, geothermal, solar.... It has to happen, one way or another.

You're telling me that hydrogen exists in large subterranean deposits ready to be mined?

Ultimately we'll move to nuclear energy for our major energy needs (electricity production) and use that to separate the hydrogen for fuel cells.

[dBu]

Originally Posted by xiannaix

You're telling me that hydrogen exists in large subterranean deposits ready to be mined?

Ultimately we'll move to nuclear energy for our major energy needs (electricity production) and use that to separate the hydrogen for fuel cells.

I am all for nuclear energy, the only thing is, what do we do with the nuclear waste. Sooner or later we are going to run out of room and not to mention the national security problems it causes with all of the terrorist crap going on, which I don't see waning off any time soon.;

[Kyle Everett]

Originally Posted by xiannaix

You're telling me that hydrogen exists in large subterranean deposits ready to be mined?

Ultimately we'll move to nuclear energy for our major energy needs (electricity production) and use that to separate the hydrogen for fuel cells.

No, the CO2 by-products that are separated from natural gases(usable) during mining are then pumped back into the ground. I was saying, since co2 is also a by-product of hydrogen production we could do the same, since the volumn of co2 that is pumped during natural gas mining is significantly less than the original volume(with the usable natural gas) the reservoirs would still be able to hold much more. Im sure this could cause problems eventually, but I havent dug that deep yet.

and yes, nuclear is probably going to be the way to go unless we figure out cold fusion.