Contender to become the next Pope launched a fierce attack on forces of secularism.

[Trey Brister]

Secular forces 'pushing God to margins'
By Bruce Johnston in Milan and Jonathan Petre
(Filed: 20/11/2004)

A leading contender to become the next Pope launched a fierce attack on the forces of secularism yesterday, arguing that they were fostering intolerance in Europe and forcing Christianity underground.

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, 77, one of the Vatican's most powerful figures, issued a rallying cry to the faithful, saying that the liberal consensus had now evolved into a "worrying and aggressive" ideology.

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger

As a result, "Catholic and Christian religion" had been pushed out of the public debate and was being "driven into the margins".

The warning, in a long interview in La Repubblica, Italy's Left-leaning newspaper, comes as the Bavarian-born cardinal, who is the Pope's doctrinal chief, is being viewed as an important late entry for the papacy.

Coming shortly after MEPs refused to approve the Italian politician Rocco Buttiglione as European justice commissioner because of his strong Catholic views on gays and women, his statements may be seen by some as something of a manifesto.

The cardinal was speaking against a backdrop of rapidly declining priestly vocations in Europe which is worrying Church leaders.

Describing the development of a "secular ideological aggression" across the continent as "cause for concern," the cardinal said: "In Sweden, a Protestant minister who preached about homosexuality on the basis of an excerpt from the scriptures was put in jail for a month.

"Secularism is no longer that element of neutrality, which opens up space for freedom for all. It is beginning to change into an ideology which, through politics, is being imposed.

"It concedes no public space to the Catholic and Christian vision, which as a result runs the risk of turning into a purely private matter, so that deep down it is no longer the same.

"In this sense a struggle exists and so we must defend religious freedom against an ideology which is held up as if it were the only voice of rationality, when instead it is only an expression of a 'certain' rationialism."

In contemporary society, said the cardinal, who is the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, God had been pushed "very much into the margins".

"In politics, it seems to be almost indecent to speak about God, almost as it were an attack on the freedom of someone who doesn't believe," he said.

The cardinal added: "A secularism which is just, is a freedom of religion. The state does not impose a religion, but rather provides free space to those religions with a responsibility to civil society."

The society in which we now lived was one where there was a great deal of transformation.

"Negative birth rates and immigration are changing Europe's ethnic make-up. Above all we've gone from being a Christian culture to one of aggressive secularism which at times is intolerant."

He said that even though "churches were emptying" and people were "no longer able to believe," Christian faith was "not dead".

He said he remained convinced of hope's inner strength, even if the future of the Church lay more in "other continents" than Europe.

Cardinal Ratzinger, once viewed as the likely papal "kingmaker", is now believed to stand a good chance himself precisely because of his advanced years.

Vatican watchers maintain that long-serving popes tend to be succeeded by short-lived "interim" papacies.

Despite his arch-conservative popular image, the cardinal often reveals a frankness and readiness to discuss even the most delicate subjects. .

He admitted that the gulf between the Church and its faithful over sexuality was a matter for "further reflection".

He said that the Pill had "separated sexuality from fertility and so has deeply changed the concept of life itself.

"The sexual act has lost its meaning and purpose. . . to the point that all kinds of sexuality have become the equivalents of each other. The main consequence is the placing of homosexuality and heterosexuality on equal terms."

[Hey Bubu]

Guess the church hates seeing hundreds of years of influence going away...

*waits for the new counter-reformation movement to begin*

Originally Posted by TypeH

Guess the church hates seeing hundreds of years of influence going away...

*waits for the new counter-reformation movement to begin*

But rather than suggest a cynical motive for the comments... what do you think about what he said?

In general I think his comments were a fair critique of Euro-secularism. I think Euro-secularism defends a lack of standards and asails the church for taking a hard line approach to standards. The secularists, to me, often come across as snotty kids complaining that they can't go out and play. The Church, is the parent saying, that playing in the rain will make you catch your death of cold. The secularists in turn ignore the fact that many of them have caught colds and ignore that the dangers the Church warns of have actually happened.

[Hey Bubu]

I can see where he is coming from, and I can look at the issue from a political stand point and from a religious one. After so many centuries of religious rule I think it is only normal to see a sway away from religion. The issue is so complicated I am sure there are studies on the matter. It wouldn't surprise me if we see another massive decline in religion only to see it come back full force in a couple of decades. In a world where we are more globally connected, where we no longer see "miracles" and the basic moral values of religion can be applied without the "old" religious "hold" it seems like a natural progression to veer away from it. Deux ex machina indeed, if you think about it.

[kit'n]

Originally Posted by TypeH

I can see where he is coming from, and I can look at the issue from a political stand point and from a religious one. After so many centuries of religious rule I think it is only normal to see a sway away from religion. The issue is so complicated I am sure there are studies on the matter. It wouldn't surprise me if we see another massive decline in religion only to see it come back full force in a couple of decades.

when i was in a xian history class last year here at school, the teacher said that that has happened time and again through history - a dip in religous beliefs (more specifically xian) followed by a peak, a dip, a peak, etc. he did say that right now the world is in a dip, but that another peak will rise eventually.







i hoping he is wrong

[Hey Bubu]

Originally Posted by kit'n

when i was in a xian history class last year here at school, the teacher said that that has happened time and again through history - a dip in religous beliefs (more specifically xian) followed by a peak, a dip, a peak, etc. he did say that right now the world is in a dip, but that another peak will rise eventually.



i hoping he is wrong

Unless we see another major religion rise up, I'm sure the pattern will continue.

As a side note, I honestly believe that some of Islams strict following as well as cultural and social issues have prevented some of the middle eastern countries from really advancing culturally and socially. Massive general statement btw.

Originally Posted by TypeH

Massive general statement btw.

no less accurate

[Satchel]

Originally Posted by xiannaix

But rather than suggest a cynical motive for the comments... what do you think about what he said?

In general I think his comments were a fair critique of Euro-secularism. I think Euro-secularism defends a lack of standards and asails the church for taking a hard line approach to standards. The secularists, to me, often come across as snotty kids complaining that they can't go out and play. The Church, is the parent saying, that playing in the rain will make you catch your death of cold. The secularists in turn ignore the fact that many of them have caught colds and ignore that the dangers the Church warns of have actually happened.

If the europeans have caught a cold, we have fucking down syndrome over here.

[Keith P]

In general I think his comments were a fair critique of Euro-secularism. I think Euro-secularism defends a lack of standards and asails the church for taking a hard line approach to standards.

You can have standards without adhering to a religious practice.

Personally I'm very fond of John Paul. Sorry to burst your bubble but the next pope won't be a religious hardliner. Funny enough...I believe Catholicism is one of the only denominations that is embracing science, and trying to progress with the rest of the modern world. And quite frankly that is now one of the main focuses of the modern church. Its' great though. The church has a right to attack secularism. I personally get tired of the attitudes of governments such as France, even with how non religious I am.

[Funkenstein]

Originally Posted by Keith P

Funny enough...I believe Catholicism is one of the only denominations that is embracing science, and trying to progress with the rest of the modern world. And quite frankly that is now one of the main focuses of the modern church.

We (Catholics) have no choice but to do so. Those wishing to participate and become servants of the Church are not in as high number as they used to be. Followers of the faith have to be enticed in a different manner nowadays, thus the need for re-evaluation of stances on "the pill" and the benefits associated with becoming ordained.

Originally Posted by rufuspfunk

We (Catholics) have no choice but to do so. Those wishing to participate and become servants of the Church are not in as high number as they used to be. Followers of the faith have to be enticed in a different manner nowadays, thus the need for re-evaluation of stances on "the pill" and the benefits associated with becoming ordained.

The short version of how to fix the shortage of priests is to eliminate the chastity requirement.

[kit'n]

Originally Posted by xiannaix

The short version of how to fix the shortage of priests is to eliminate the chastity requirement.

but they want their priests pure and everyone knows how dirty and impure women and sex are.

[Funkenstein]

Originally Posted by xiannaix

The short version of how to fix the shortage of priests is to eliminate the chastity requirement.

I thought that would be a quick answer as well, but think about the priest who then decides to keep at the habit (pun intended). Does this guy then prey on his parishioners (since he is allowed to have sex)? Is it considering preying (with permission to have sex from the Papacy)? How do you differentiate who you are allowed to relate with and how far do you have to report your intimacy as well as to whom?

There also is the question as to whether or not priests should be allowed to be married. Other faiths allow their messengers to live a life not only spreading the word of G-d, but their own seed as well. Catholicism is still not willing to allow any devotion to anything other than servitude to Church and G-d alone. I myself see nothing wrong with that (since it keeps one focused on things), but I am not the world. Catholicism isn't going disappear overnight, but the need to embrace some science and fact is pressing closer every day.

Originally Posted by kit'n

but they want their priests pure and everyone knows how dirty and impure women and sex are.

The Bible tells me so.

Wait. Actually a guy in a pontiff's hat does that.

Originally Posted by rufuspfunk

I thought that would be a quick answer as well, but think about the priest who then decides to keep at the habit (pun intended). Does this guy then prey on his parishioners (since he is allowed to have sex)? Is it considering preying (with permission to have sex from the Papacy)? How do you differentiate who you are allowed to relate with and how far do you have to report your intimacy as well as to whom?

There also is the question as to whether or not priests should be allowed to be married. Other faiths allow their messengers to live a life not only spreading the word of G-d, but their own seed as well. Catholicism is still not willing to allow any devotion to anything other than servitude to Church and G-d alone. I myself see nothing wrong with that (since it keeps one focused on things), but I am not the world. Catholicism isn't going disappear overnight, but the need to embrace some science and fact is pressing closer every day.

I'm just saying priest should be permitted to marry.... not that they should have sex with whomever they feel like when the mood strikes.

Dating a congregant is prolly unethical in so far as the priest hears their confessions etc.

I'm Lutheran, our Pastors marry. They don't "prey" on congregations. Most are married prior to finishing seminary so its a relatively smal issue. However, I'm certain guidelines for dating exist for them - couldn't be too hard for Catholics to take a peek at that rule book

[Funkenstein]

Originally Posted by xiannaix

I'm just saying priest should be permitted to marry.... not that they should have sex with whomever they feel like when the mood strikes.

Dating a congregant is prolly unethical in so far as the priest hears their confessions etc.

I'm Lutheran, our Pastors marry. They don't "prey" on congregations. Most are married prior to finishing seminary so its a relatively smal issue. However, I'm certain guidelines for dating exist for them - couldn't be too hard for Catholics to take a peek at that rule book

Yeah. I understand what you are saying. It wasn't a jab at you, just a highlighting of some points that I thought of.

I base my info off of almost attending seminary school to earn a frock for myself. I was a decision away back in 1997 from becoming Father Rufus.

There is something to chuckle about.