Xian

[Porkchop Avenger]

Care to comment on this?

http://members.iinet.net.au/~gregga/xmas.html

I'm familiar with some of the pagan rituals taken as Christian festivities, but I wasn't aware of some other things that are mentioned here, and well I need to do more research to see the validity of what they say.

What specifically did you want me to comment on?

[Porkchop Avenger]

Mainly the validity of some of the statements and assumptions.

I would think there would be two schools of thought, one that would want to remove all these pagan holidays and reset to the "original" ones and one that would argue that what matters is the worshipping of God, regardless of dates and customs.

As a Xian, were you aware that some of the holidays and dates are wrong and that much of old pagan beliefs still permiate the religion?

Sure, I was aware many of the dates were wrong.

It doesn't take a genius to recognize the proximity to the winter solstice as the date celebrated for Christ's birth. Nor does the proximity of Easter to the Equinox.... rebirth etc.

It is interesting stuff to be sure.

[Porkchop Avenger]

Originally Posted by xiannaix

Sure, I was aware many of the dates were wrong.

It doesn't take a genius to recognize the proximity to the winter solstice as the date celebrated for Christ's birth. Nor does the proximity of Easter to the Equinox.... rebirth etc.

It is interesting stuff to be sure.

I'll take that as a politicians "no opinion on the matter" statement

Originally Posted by TypeH

I'll take that as a politicians "no opinion on the matter" statement

hehe


I find the facts very interesting. Certainly the timing of the celebrations of Easter and Christmas have to acknowledge pagan influence. Just far too coincidental/obvious to deny.


However, as a matter of faith - I'm not troubled by that fact.

[Porkchop Avenger]

*puts on Devil's advocate hat*

But you may be basing your faith on false facts, does that not go againts the doctrine of the religion?

Originally Posted by TypeH

*puts on Devil's advocate hat*

But you may be basing your faith on false facts, does that not go againts the doctrine of the religion?

The only "false facts" you've pointed out are calendar issues - not doctrine.

[Porkchop Avenger]

Original doctrine dictates certain holidays to be celebrated at specific times, if a calendar change is made does this not go against the dogmatic law? Ergo no pagan holiday should be celebratedm, but such is not the case.

*adjusts devil's advocate hat*

Originally Posted by TypeH

Original doctrine dictates certain holidays to be celebrated at specific times, if a calendar change is made does this not go against the dogmatic law? Ergo no pagan holiday should be celebratedm, but such is not the case.

*adjusts devil's advocate hat*

But the only issue is a date - not what is celebrated. At Easter we celebrate death and rebirth of Christ not to return of Persephone etc.

If we had a saturnalia in December etc - you'd have a point.

[Porkchop Avenger]

Originally Posted by xiannaix

But the only issue is a date - not what is celebrated. At Easter we celebrate death and rebirth of Christ not to return of Persephone etc.

If we had a saturnalia in December etc - you'd have a point.

That's like saying that even though your birthday is on say May 27th, you will celebrate it August 3rd just cause.

Another example is that one is in fact celebrating a pagan holiday that has been molded to fit the evolving needs of the current religion (chrisitanity,) so does that dilute the essence of the original religion?

As a side note, I'm not just harping on Chrisitanity, I am aware that countless of religions do this. Just happens that Christianity is the current subject matter.

I agree ultimately it is the message that matters. Rituals have been in placed and have changed thousands of times.

Originally Posted by TypeH

That's like saying that even though your birthday is on say May 27th, you will celebrate it August 3rd just cause.

What am I celebrating? A date or an event? The important point is to celebrate the birth isn't it? The date is merely a marker of the event not the event itself.

Originally Posted by TypeH

Another example is that one is in fact celebrating a pagan holiday that has been molded to fit the evolving needs of the current religion (chrisitanity,) so does that dilute the essence of the original religion?

Disagree. As I said, if we were celebrating the return of Persephone in the spring you'd have a point. That a celebration for rebirth in cultural context A - pagan would closely resemble celebration for rebirth in cultural contex B - Christian should come as no surprise. They celebrate very similar things even if they are not the same.

Originally Posted by TypeH

As a side note, I'm not just harping on Chrisitanity, I am aware that countless of religions do this. Just happens that Christianity is the current subject matter.

I agree ultimately it is the message that matters. Rituals have been in placed and have changed thousands of times.

Sure this is true. I'm saying that this does not trouble me at all.

[Porkchop Avenger]

Originally Posted by xiannaix

What am I celebrating? A date or an event? The important point is to celebrate the birth isn't it? The date is merely a marker of the event not the event itself.

How are they not mutually exclusive though? It would be like celebrating the fourth of July in December



Anyway, this was some fun banter no less.

Originally Posted by TypeH

How are they not mutually exclusive though? It would be like celebrating the fourth of July in December



Anyway, this was some fun banter no less.

Well.... we do observe Washington's birthday on a day that isn't his birthday.

As for mutually exclusive.... you're suggesting that observing a holiday improperly negates the value. Does this mean that, for example, if the wrong bread or wine is used in communion that the ablution is invalid?

[Porkchop Avenger]

Originally Posted by xiannaix

Does this mean that, for example, if the wrong bread or wine is used in communion that the ablution is invalid?

If you were to ask a purist, then yes it would be invalid for it is not only the act but what it is used during the act that helps one achive the main goal of worship and salvation. Basically the argument of following original doctrine is what would be thrown as the point. With any religion there are rituals that are suppossed to be followed. If these rituals are not followed then the validity of the actions are negated, regardless of the intention of the practitioner.

Which further poses this dilemma if you will, if certain laws and days of observance are indeed divine mandate, then not following them, and further more taking up pagan holidays, means that salvation or at the least absolution will not be achieved. Can one count not knowing about these changes (ignorance to original mandates) as excuse for rightful absolution and acceptance in to God's kingdom?

Something else to tickle yer pickle, since we do not follow these rules to the "T" and we see no divine intervention towards our lack of adherence to divine law, does this mean that A) God/Gods does not care for protocol, B) God/Gods are on vacation and haven't checked their inboxes C)... D)...blah,blah, blah which could further go into the argument of the existence of a divine entity.