Marines shoot insurgent who was 'playing dead' again - Dallas Dance Music - Dallas nightlife, music, tickets, and more

USAcommitteeX · 11-22-04, 08:08 PM

Quote:

The US military says Marines in Fallujah have shot and killed an insurgent who engaged them as he was faking being dead, a week after footage of a marine killing an apparently unarmed and wounded Iraqi caused a stir in the region.

"Marines from the 1st Marine Division shot and killed an insurgent who while faking dead opened fire on the marines who were conducting a security and clearing patrol through the streets," a military statement said.

The point-blank shooting on November 13 of a wounded Iraqi was caught on tape and beamed around the world.

It raised questions about the degree of military restraint and fanned Arab resentment.

The marine was withdrawn from combat and an investigation launched.

Military sources had said that the rules of engagement were looser during the operation launched in Fallujah, for fear that rebels would be disguised, fake death or wear suicide explosives belts.

The US military and Iraqi government troops are still carrying house-to-house searches in the rebel bastion but two weeks after it was launched, the largest post-Saddam military operation in Iraq is all but over.

According to US military figures, more than 1,200 insurgents have been killed in the intense fighting, as well as 51 US troops and eight Iraqi personnel.

How dare they....

Tortures Dionysos · 11-23-04, 05:44 PM

I am sick to death of our military getting crap for FIGHTING A WAR!

Ok... we want them to go over there... fight a nasty war with a bunch of people who would just as soon shoot them dead... but... OH WAIT... "you solider need to follow all these guidelines and rules... yes, we know it is a war... but you can't just FIGHT for your life any way you please"...

Blah... blah... blah.

Let our guys go there... FIGHT in this WAR... WIN.. and get the hell out. They act all innocent and downtrodden... when in fact they are just pissed off we are kicking their (insurgents) asses!

Vosh · 11-23-04, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karen EpiK

I am sick to death of our military getting crap for FIGHTING A WAR!

Ok... we want them to go over there... fight a nasty war with a bunch of people who would just as soon shoot them dead... but... OH WAIT... "you solider need to follow all these guidelines and rules... yes, we know it is a war... but you can't just FIGHT for your life any way you please"...

Blah... blah... blah.

Let our guys go there... FIGHT in this WAR... WIN.. and get the hell out. They act all innocent and downtrodden... when in fact they are just pissed off we are kicking their (insurgents) asses!

... those rules are in place for a reason...

dfwtrader · 11-23-04, 06:13 PM

amen karen......and yes rules of engagement are in place for a reason, but just like with any rule it is left to interpretation......although we are not all in agreement as to whether we should be there or not and i am sure rules have been broken, as far as i am concerned i grant quite a bit of latitude to someone who could be staring down the barrel of an ak47 because someone is playing dead to entrap a US soldier.....
i am all for humane treatmen of pow's rights once they are deemed constrained, unarmed, and not a threat......until that time the rules of engagement are left to the soldiers pounding the ground and putting their life at risk.

justin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vosh

... those rules are in place for a reason...

Anakin · 11-23-04, 06:26 PM

Quote:

The US military says Marines in Fallujah have shot and killed an insurgent who engaged them as he was faking being dead, a week after footage of a marine killing an apparently unarmed and wounded Iraqi caused a stir in the region.

what kind of bullshit, did anyone else see that video? It was motherfucking old as hell. from February.

besides the enemy is the enemy. kill terrorist, no mercy.

and rules...when they (the terrorist) start following the geneva convention, then we will do the same for them. fucktard terrorist deserve no respect. end of discussion.

Vosh · 11-23-04, 07:45 PM

LOL. I'm not saying the insurgents shouldn't be shot if they are playing dead. They break the rule so the rules don't apply to them anymore... same goes for terrorists and spies if i recall correctly. But all I'm saying is that this is a war, some play dirty some don't. If we start killing them all then we are also playing dirty. No, no, if you put up a flag of surrender then start shooting, you will get whats coming to you and no one should be up in a roar about it.

Karen seemed to say "to hell with rules lets just fight." I'm saying that those rules are in place for those who decide to follow the rules of engagment. Once you give up on those rules, I figure you dont deserve them yourself. HOWEVER, you can't just start saying that all of them fight like that, cause that is simplifying something that should never be simplified, war.

But hey, I hope for the best for the troops. Personally, I say get them the hell out of their right now.

USAcommitteeX · 11-23-04, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karen EpiK

I am sick to death of our military getting crap for FIGHTING A WAR!

Ok... we want them to go over there... fight a nasty war with a bunch of people who would just as soon shoot them dead... but... OH WAIT... "you solider need to follow all these guidelines and rules... yes, we know it is a war... but you can't just FIGHT for your life any way you please"...

Blah... blah... blah.

Let our guys go there... FIGHT in this WAR... WIN.. and get the hell out. They act all innocent and downtrodden... when in fact they are just pissed off we are kicking their (insurgents) asses!

I hear ya but when I said "how dare they" I was being sarcastic.

Ryan · 11-23-04, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karen EpiK

Ok... we want them to go over there... fight a nasty war with a bunch of people who would just as soon shoot them dead...

No "we" don't.

Quote:

Let our guys go there... FIGHT in this WAR... WIN.. and get the hell out. They act all innocent and downtrodden... when in fact they are just pissed off we are kicking their (insurgents) asses!

When will you enlist?

Dionysos · 11-23-04, 09:30 PM

Source? 67890

MysteryMeat · 11-24-04, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karen EpiK

I am sick to death of our military getting crap for FIGHTING A WAR!

Ok... we want them to go over there... fight a nasty war with a bunch of people who would just as soon shoot them dead... but... OH WAIT... "you solider need to follow all these guidelines and rules... yes, we know it is a war... but you can't just FIGHT for your life any way you please"...

Blah... blah... blah.

Let our guys go there... FIGHT in this WAR... WIN.. and get the hell out. They act all innocent and downtrodden... when in fact they are just pissed off we are kicking their (insurgents) asses!

Why not pitch in and help? I'm sure you can go down to the local 7-11 or call a taxi and find one of those towel-headed camel jockeys. Fuck it, they're all the same, right?

As I stated before in another thread: those rules aren't in place so we can get a few free-throws in when the other team breaks them. They're there because they help define what our culture feels humanity is in the face of war thru lines of honor and responsibility. As soon as our soldiers begin ignoring these codes of honor, they no longer have a place in our society -- ask a few vietnam veterans some time.

Tortures Dionysos · 11-24-04, 09:55 AM

Quote:

and rules...when they (the terrorist) start following the geneva convention, then we will do the same for them. fucktard terrorist deserve no respect. end of discussion.

Quote:

I'm not saying the insurgents shouldn't be shot if they are playing dead. They break the rule so the rules don't apply to them anymore... same goes for terrorists and spies if i recall correctly. But all I'm saying is that this is a war, some play dirty some don't. If we start killing them all then we are also playing dirty. No, no, if you put up a flag of surrender then start shooting, you will get whats coming to you and no one should be up in a roar about it.

Perfectly said.

Rules shouldn't apply when the ones you are fighting... aren't following them... some common decency should be in place.... but if someone is "playing" dead so they can kill you... or they are waiving surrender flags... only to kill our troops... then those people get what they get.

Funkenstein · 11-24-04, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karen EpiK

Perfectly said.

Rules shouldn't apply when the ones you are fighting. . .aren't following them. . . some common decency should be in place. . .

"Our...culture is one of the most violent in history. We have accepted the notion that life is cheap, and we have become content with killing and destruction and murder as 'the way things are.' We, who imagine ourselves to be civilized, have sadly become the savages...." - Bryan Fulwider, in regards to the death penalty (but applicable here)

How saddening.

11-24-04, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rufuspfunk

"Our...culture is one of the most violent in history. We have accepted the notion that life is cheap, and we have become content with killing and destruction and murder as 'the way things are.' We, who imagine ourselves to be civilized, have sadly become the savages...." - Bryan Fulwider, in regards to the death penalty (but applicable here)

How saddening.

Ah yes, we're more violent than most cultures in history... what a crock of shit.

The communist experience and the numbers of people executed, starved etc

The Age of Exploration / Exploitation by Europeans (and yes, a good bit by America on the tail end) killed millions globally in spreading disease and warfare over holdings

Certainly the preriod prior to that in Europe going back to the fall of the Roman Empire were actaully quite peaceful and life was much more respect.

Going back a bit further - we know how highly the Romans regarded the sancity of life and how vigorously they defended it.

I just can't get over how amazingly ridiculous Bryan Fulwider's claim is.......

in 2003 - 65 people executed

2002 - 71
2001 - 66
2000 - 85
1999 - 98 * highest total
1998 - 68

yada yada yada

Capital punishment is detested by some (and the America IS violent) - but the DP is, objectively speaking, a piss poor factor to use as determinative in declaring the US one of the most violent societies in history.

Funkenstein · 11-24-04, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xiannaix

Capital punishment is detested by some (and the America IS violent) - but the DP is, objectively speaking, a piss poor factor to use as determinative in declaring the US one of the most violent societies in history.

I fit the statement to this situation. The idea was that we become what we fight if we suscribe to the school of thought Karen and Anakin are reaching from. If you admit yourself that we are violent, then does that still excuse us not playing by the rules we have made?

That is the point I was making. Fulwider is known for his stance on DP (as we both know) and neither one of us can change that. In the end, MUST we turn into them (the insurgents) to win?

11-24-04, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rufuspfunk

I fit the statement to this situation. The idea was that we become what we fight if we suscribe to the school of thought Karen and Anakin are reaching from. If you admit yourself that we are violent, then does that still excuse us not playing by the rules we have made?

That is the point I was making. Fulwider is known for his stance on DP (as we both know) and neither one of us can change that. In the end, MUST we turn into them (the insurgents) to win?

I made a specific attack directed at a specific comment. I was commenting on rules.

As for rules of combat, our soldiers have their rules of engagement. They should be followed. Where they have been violated there should be serious inquiry.

On your last point. Are you suggesting that because we have the death penalty we're terrorist/insurgents?

..... sorry if I came across cranky... kinda cranky today... mea culpa

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11-23-04, 07:45 PM	#6 (permalink)
Vosh Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 703	LOL. I'm not saying the insurgents shouldn't be shot if they are playing dead. They break the rule so the rules don't apply to them anymore... same goes for terrorists and spies if i recall correctly. But all I'm saying is that this is a war, some play dirty some don't. If we start killing them all then we are also playing dirty. No, no, if you put up a flag of surrender then start shooting, you will get whats coming to you and no one should be up in a roar about it. Karen seemed to say "to hell with rules lets just fight." I'm saying that those rules are in place for those who decide to follow the rules of engagment. Once you give up on those rules, I figure you dont deserve them yourself. HOWEVER, you can't just start saying that all of them fight like that, cause that is simplifying something that should never be simplified, war. But hey, I hope for the best for the troops. Personally, I say get them the hell out of their right now.