ID v. Evolution...

[HarveytheRabbit]

Ok, I know that all of the people who don't accept evolution say it's "a theory" but is there really a debate about it among anyone other than the extremely religious? Is there anyone here who sees a shred of validity in ID? Is there one research group or even a single respectable scientist who can show evidence that rivals evolution?? I am not being sarcastic, I seriously want to know if ID is any more than a fairy tale? To me it sounds about as valid as saying that rain coming from clouds is just a theory.....it could just as easily be God pissing through a sieve.
I guess I don't understand how people think that science and religion are mutually exclusive. I believe in a higher power of some sort, but I am not so arogant to think that my understanding of whatever God there may be is absolutely correct. If science proves something to the world that contradicts a spiritual understanding you have......MAYBE YOU ARE WRONG!!!! But then again, maybe you are as smart as God and he told you what really happend one night while you were out damning the homos.
Think about what the world thinks about the religions of the past, (In general, not trying to offend) they worshipped a physical God for everything. One for the sun, the sky, the rain, the trees, the ground, the water....everything. I think every culture develops the understanding of God it can understand, what place does anyone have to reject the world as we know it just because you cant let go of a culture's understanding of God from 2000 years ago!!!!.


Anyways, sorry about the length.......what do you guys think?

[Hey Bubu]

NOLA is the next Atlantis?

[HarveytheRabbit]

what?

[PETA]

Originally Posted by HarveytheRabbit

Ok, I know that all of the people who don't accept evolution say it's "a theory" but is there really a debate about it among anyone other than the extremely religious? Is there anyone here who sees a shred of validity in ID? Is there one research group or even a single respectable scientist who can show evidence that rivals evolution?? I am not being sarcastic, I seriously want to know if ID is any more than a fairy tale? To me it sounds about as valid as saying that rain coming from clouds is just a theory.....it could just as easily be God pissing through a sieve.
I guess I don't understand how people think that science and religion are mutually exclusive. I believe in a higher power of some sort, but I am not so arogant to think that my understanding of whatever God there may be is absolutely correct. If science proves something to the world that contradicts a spiritual understanding you have......MAYBE YOU ARE WRONG!!!! But then again, maybe you are as smart as God and he told you what really happend one night while you were out damning the homos.
Think about what the world thinks about the religions of the past, (In general, not trying to offend) they worshipped a physical God for everything. One for the sun, the sky, the rain, the trees, the ground, the water....everything. I think every culture develops the understanding of God it can understand, what place does anyone have to reject the world as we know it just because you cant let go of a culture's understanding of God from 2000 years ago!!!!.


Anyways, sorry about the length.......what do you guys think?

I think you're confusing how with why.... ID does not preclude and in fact welcomes the theory of evolution. Evolution, however, does not explain everything - but it does explain a lot.


scientist writer and ID advocate -

http://www.geraldschroeder.com/new.html

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...75905?v=glance

[Xodiac]

I think you're confusing how with why.... ID does not preclude and in fact welcomes the theory of evolution. Evolution, however, does not explain everything - but it does explain a lot.

Many advocates of ID don't see it that way, (perhaps wrongly) touting it as an "alternative" theory to evolution.

[Sinner]

Originally Posted by HarveytheRabbit

Is there anyone here who sees a shred of validity in ID?

I think if we get to Mars and find a computer sitting in the dust, the first thought that will come to mind will be "Who/What put this here??" And we are MUCH more complex than a computer. Even Einstein said "God doesn't roll dice." when talking about the complexity of everything. But, hey, what do I know, I'm just a science fearing Christian that doesn't believe in gravity.

[PETA]

Originally Posted by Xodiac

Many advocates of ID don't see it that way, (perhaps wrongly) touting it as an "alternative" theory to evolution.

It is not necessary to reject evolution to think that there is order and intelligence behind the universe - its relative minutiae don't you think?

[MattM]

Yes, the debate is still up in the air, contrary to popular belief. The scientific world is no doubt just as split as the rest of the population. There are several atheist mathematicians at leading universities such as harvard that have made statements explaining that at the least a mathematical miracle did indeed occur saying things like 'that it would be more probable for a tornado to rip through a junkyard and a boeing 737 to emerge from the wreckage or it would be more probable for a person to win the lottery every week for the next 1,000 years or so, or taking 30,000 blind people, giving them a rubiks cube and having them all solve the rubiks cube at precisely the same moment, than for humans to randomly mutate out of some goo." I was reading some other report by another scientist in which he was saying that if he took a dead frog and blended it in a blender and then put the contents in his refrigirator and left it there for a few million years (and somehow struck it with lightning a few times) that when he came back he would no doubt still have very old frog mush.

I personally think that evolution is highly misunderstood and misused as some kind of religous propaganda nowadays.

[Sinner]

Originally Posted by xian

1) he wasn't talking about evolution

2) ever see gravity? or how did that go anyway?

1- I know, I edited my comment at the same time you responded to my mistake.

2- Please know I was joking...

[PETA]

Originally Posted by MicahB

2- Please know I was joking...

I know you were - I was piling on

[Xodiac]

Originally Posted by xian

It is not necessary to reject evolution to think that there is order and intelligence behind the universe - its relative minutiae don't you think?

No, don't get me wrong, I'm not SUPPORTING the notion that ID precludes evolution, in fact, evolution could very well be the mechanism of the design of life. It makes the whole argument of id VS evolution even more rediculous.

Xian is right on the einstein reference, he was talking about quantum mechanics vs scientific determinism with that quote, not intelligent design vs evolution.

I think if we get to Mars and find a computer sitting in the dust, the first thought that will come to mind will be "Who/What put this here??" And we are MUCH more complex than a computer

Yes, if we went to Mars and found a computer, we WOULD wonder who put it there.

Why?

Because people make computers, so it is a safe and natural question based on a reasonable assumption.

But people don't make UNIVERSES.

ID is based on the assumption that something complex can only exist because it was made by soemthing conscious and intelligent. Can any ID proponents explain how this assumption is reasonable?

[HarveytheRabbit]

Originally Posted by Xodiac

Many advocates of ID don't see it that way, (perhaps wrongly) touting it as an "alternative" theory to evolution.

This is pretty much what I hear whenever I hear about ID....that evolution is nothing more than a theory and ID is just as good a theory

[PETA]

Originally Posted by Xodiac

No, don't get me wrong, I'm not SUPPORTING the notion that ID precludes evolution, in fact, evolution could very well be the mechanism of the design of life. It makes the whole argument of id VS evolution even more rediculous.

that's what I was implying... ID can incorporate ANY scientific theory and simply, as you note, identify it as the mechanism by which ID is accomplished.

Originally Posted by Xodiac

Yes, if we went to Mars and found a computer, we WOULD wonder who put it there.

Why?

Because people make computers, so it is a safe and natural question based on a reasonable assumption.

But people don't make UNIVERSES.

ID is based on the (immature, in my opinion) assumption that something complex can only exist because it was made by soemthing conscious and intelligent. Can any ID proponents explain how this assumption is reasonable?

How the assumption that complexity requires intelligent consciousness? It makes more sense that it was created than it simply generated by sheer dumb luck? I dunno. I believe in God - I believe he's the creator - I'm just fascinated by all the attempts to figure out how he did it... makes it easy to accept both sides of the discussion

[Sinner]

Originally Posted by Xodiac

Xian is right on the einstein reference, he was talking about quantum mechanics vs scientific determinism with that quote, not intelligent design vs evolution.

To me it's all kind of the same thing. First there was nothing. Then there was something. Then there were universes. Then there was goop on a big piece of rock. Then the goop turned into fish, blah blah blah... I know he wasn't directly talking about "evolution" but it all ties in.

[zerojunkie]

Originally Posted by Xodiac

Many advocates of ID don't see it that way, (perhaps wrongly) touting it as an "alternative" theory to evolution.

What? who? I thought evolution is a crutial part of ID. I mean, it'd be creation if it didn't, right?

Even Einstein said "God doesn't roll dice." when talking about the complexity of everything.

And Niels Bohr asked that Einstein not tell God what to do. :P