Why have the jews been hated/persecuted through out the ages?

[Krash]

Oh, and, as for hated (cuz my posts only reply to persecuted), I'd hazard a guess that it's good, old fashioned, jealousy and envy.

[PETA]

Originally Posted by Krash

For time comparisons, I'd cite the gypsy's / pagans / and various other "minorities" (though they weren't always such) and black people.

I'll buy the Romani. (Fascinating culture and Hx btw) But "pagans" and black people is too vague don't you think?. They are not specific groups with their own uinified culture, history and language... they are elements that belong to many culture and histories.

Originally Posted by Krash

For sheer numbers, the Russians (stalin killed, what, 10million? Willing to be corrected on those, my memory for stats is hazy).

I shudder to think T.

Originally Posted by Krash

To go with any number of smaller indigenous peoples throughout history, who suffered far worse propotional losses to the "superior" races than the Jews have and did.

We can point to predations that accompanied the age of exploration to be sure. Some were wiped out to be sure. But, the duration and universality of the persecution of the Jews sets them apart doesn't it? (as does their remarkable ability to survive as a culture)

Originally Posted by Krash

The comment on "haven't always" was based on the, at least tenative, partnership the muslims and the jews shared around the time of the Ottoman Empire, the jews being the business people that transcended national boundaries to deal in and out of that empire, particularly with Europe.

Certainly some of the very features that are focused on for benefit are also easily identified as reason for harm... jews could charge interest on loans so they ran the banking business

Originally Posted by Krash

None of those mentioned have been persecuted as harshly AND for as long, but seperate those two factors and there are civilisations that have been persecuted worse.

surely, as I conceded there are those that have been completely extinguished

did you know that Jews and Muslims are basically brothers... as both religions came from offspring of Ishmael

so it's funny that they fight with each other... it's like sibling rivalry

[PETA]

Originally Posted by sgx

did you know that Jews and Muslims are basically brothers... as both religions came from offspring of Ishmael

so it's funny that they fight with each other... it's like sibling rivalry

You're a bit off on that one

Ishmael was the son of Hagar (and an ass of a man)

Originally Posted by Genesis 16:12

And he shall be as a wild ass among men; his hand'shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell over against all his brethren.

Isaac was the son of Sarah (who forced Hagar and Ishmael out)

They are both the sons of Abraham but they were only half-brothers


And, are siblinbg rivalries have long standing traditions of great violence..... Cane and Abel?

Originally Posted by xian

You're a bit off on that one


Ishmael was the son of Hagar (and an ass of a man)

no, i thought it was the two sons of Ishmael (from two wives) that were the kind of founders of the two religions.. it's been awhile since i read up on that

or it's something like that if that's not the exact thing. the point being that they are closely related...

oh nevermind, i read the rest of what you said... it was the sons of Abraham, not Ishmael... and half-brothers or not, i still think it's ironic how they were family and yet they ended up fighting each other

[willy_jack]

Scapegoats.

[PETA]

Originally Posted by sgx

no, i thought it was the two sons of Ishmael (from two wives) that were the kind of founders of the two religions.. it's been awhile since i read up on that

or it's something like that if that's not the exact thing. the point being that they are closely related...

It is as I quoted.

Abraham is the father of both Isaac and Ishmael.

Sarah was Abraham's wife. Hagar was his slave girl.

Sarah had been barren, as such she wished her husband to have a child and asked him to have a child with Hagar. Jealousy soon ensued Sarah demanded that Hagar and Ishmael be kicked out.... which they were (a good example of the authority of women in the OT - Sarah was no push over)

Originally Posted by sgx

oh nevermind, i read the rest of what you said... it was the sons of Abraham, not Ishmael... and half-brothers or not, i still think it's ironic how they were family and yet they ended up fighting each other

Isaac and Ishmael did not fight each other. Descendants of Ishmael, thousands of years later, fought the children of Abraham through Isaac.


I understand your point but I don't buy it.

There was a book, "The Red Tent"? That tried to look at the originals of the Hebrews and Muslims and homogenize the stories such that the author could say, "see its really just a family squabble based on a misunderstanding" when that's not really the case. (I could easily have referred to the wrong book btw)

hey i said i re-read it bud... grrrrrrrrr

[PETA]

Originally Posted by sgx

hey i said i re-read it bud... grrrrrrrrr

I know - just a topic I'm a bit touchy on - my bad

why are you touchy on that?

don't you find it ironic that the religions that were spawned by half brothers end up fighting for SO LONG afterwards?

[Hey Bubu]

Originally Posted by xian

I know - just a topic I'm a bit touchy on - my bad

[Hey Bubu]

It's all about land. Religion is the excuse of man.

i disagree with your second statement there TypeH

but i'm curious, religion is the excuse for what? and are you talking about all religions or just Islam and Judaism?

[Hey Bubu]

Originally Posted by sgx

i disagree with your second statement there TypeH

but i'm curious, religion is the excuse for what? and are you talking about all religions or just Islam and Judaism?

Man has used religion as an excuse to bear war.

My God is the only one and ye shall be smitten by my Gods will and by my hand.