on the issue of rehabilitation

are you familiar with Abraham Maslow and his theory of hierarchy of needs?

well i have not seen studies relating to this pertaining to rehabilitation... BUT i have seen it relating to other subjects in which i can draw a parallel to rehabiliation

but first i want to clear up some misconceptions about my views on this subject

1. i think rehabilitation programs should be used INSIDE of prisons
2. i know that not everyone can be rehabilitated... some refuse to be and others are sick and we lack the knowledge and medicines to help them

now if you disagree with one of those two assertions then we can go from there... but some of you seem to think that my opinion is that no one should ever go to jail and that every single person is able to be rehabilitated... and i dont want anyone misunderstanding my view

in addition i think that we do not have enough rehabilitation programs in our prisons (this i can prove)... and i would suspect that not all the ones we currently have our as effective as they could be (although i cannot prove that)

so back to Maslow... he says we have basic needs that must be met before we can satisfy our growth needs... basic needs are food, water, shelter, security, safety, etc.... growth needs start out with love and belonging and move onto cognitive needs like learning and processing new information and then on to asethetic needs

the study that i'm specifically referring to was a study involving children in a school... so they are trying to see what can be done to help children meet their cognitive needs... and what they did was introduce these children to a classroom and a teacher and before doing so they told the teacher that these children were gifted and that they had been tested and were bound for great things... neither the teacher or the children were aware of the experiment... the children were just regular children... they found throughout the school year that the children exceeded the expectations of the teacher and they did better than other children their age that they tested who were taught by teachers who were not told that they were gifted.. so the psychologists concluded that since the children were being supplied with love and alot of encouragement (long and belonging needs) that their cognitive needs were better met

now how this works with criminals and those in jail is that what happens when you get into jail? you are shit on... you are told that you are nothing and that you will amount to nothing... that is basically what society tells you as well... you don't get encouragement, you don't get people telling you that you can turn your life around and that your life can mean something more then what it currently does... so your growth needs are not being met... it's a self-fulfilling prophesy, you are told you are shit so you become shit.. it starts in the family and then continues throughout society and then continues in jail and throughout the whole penal system

so what is the solution? the solution our these rehabilitation programs... where you supply them with the motivation and the tools to better their lives... you show them a positive attitude and you lead by example... you don't just throw them in a shithole and expect them to pull themselves out

now obviously you won't be able to rehabilitate every single person because not every single person is going to react positively to every rehabilitation program... but one thing i can guarantee, if you don't even TRY to rehabiliate ANYONE then NO ONE will ever be rehabilitated

[Edwin Watson]

1. this is a radical departure from everything you have represented thus far and i disagree with absolutely none of it. this is exactly what both Xian and I have been saying.

2. Just an FYI, Maslow is incredibly out of date and it was a theory intended to be used in Organizational Psychology (HR) not rehab, though theories somewhat similar do exist in clinical psychology thought.

3. you forgot one other thing that prevents rehab from being successful... they have to want to be rehabilitated.


I don't know why you keep taking an antagonistic stance towards Xian and I. You seem to hold many of the same beliefs and when we get down to the essence of the argument and you fully explain your thoughts, they are no different that, at least, mine for the most part....

Originally Posted by Edwin Watson

1. this is a radical departure from everything you have represented thus far and i disagree with absolutely none of it. this is exactly what both Xian and I have been saying.

no it's not.. i just maybe worded it a little different this time

2. Just an FYI, Maslow is incredibly out of date and it was a theory intended to be used in Organizational Psychology (HR) not rehab, though theories somewhat similar do exist in clinical psychology thought.

maybe so but i still think it gives a good example.. and it's not far from the truth even if we've learned new things beyond his theory

3. you forgot one other thing that prevents rehab from being successful... they have to want to be rehabilitated.

bullshit... read what i said

2. i know that not everyone can be rehabilitated... some refuse to be and others are sick and we lack the knowledge and medicines to help them

read the bold... i have fucking acknowledged that IN EVERY STATEMENT I'VE MADE ON THE SUBJECT

BUT it is a bullshit argument to make given the current circumstances... if we had an abundance of rehab programs available and many were refusing then you can begin to tell me about this being a problem... but right now we have a LACK of rehab programs

I don't know why you keep taking an antagonistic stance towards Xian and I. You seem to hold many of the same beliefs and when we get down to the essence of the argument and you fully explain your thoughts, they are no different that, at least, mine for the most part....

because Xian does NOT believe what i believe... he has said as much... and i'm sure he'll respond yet again

and i take an antagonistic stance because xian is a hardheaded asshole when it comes to discussing these issues with me

and i realize that your views and my views are often very similiar which is why i didnt understand in the other thread why you kept arguing with me

but i still don't understand why you don't think pulling our troops out of iraq is the right thing to do... although that's another subject altogether

[Satchel]

Originally Posted by Edwin Watson

1. this is a radical departure from everything you have represented thus far and i disagree with absolutely none of it. this is exactly what both Xian and I have been saying.

2. Just an FYI, Maslow is incredibly out of date and it was a theory intended to be used in Organizational Psychology (HR) not rehab, though theories somewhat similar do exist in clinical psychology thought.

3. you forgot one other thing that prevents rehab from being successful... they have to want to be rehabilitated.


I don't know why you keep taking an antagonistic stance towards Xian and I. You seem to hold many of the same beliefs and when we get down to the essence of the argument and you fully explain your thoughts, they are no different that, at least, mine for the most part....

funny, I was just about to post the same thing


Now you are on the right track gazer. This is what we need, and not only that but we also could combine the rehab with some kind of productivity to reduce the costs.

the only thing that differs from what i posted before is now i haven't put the exceptions to the rule in parantheses... and the only reason i did that was to counteract the views of xian... and now i've put the exceptions to the rule in bold so you wouldnt overlook them

[Edwin Watson]

Originally Posted by sgx

no it's not.. i just maybe worded it a little different this time

well, the full explaination and the wording helps. thank you.

maybe so but i still think it gives a good example.. and it's not far from the truth even if we've learned new things beyond his theory

you are absolutely right.


bullshit... read what i said

2. i know that not everyone can be rehabilitated... some refuse to be and others are sick and we lack the knowledge and medicines to help them

read the bold... i have fucking acknowledged that IN EVERY STATEMENT I'VE MADE ON THE SUBJECT

BUT it is a bullshit argument to make given the current circumstances... if we had an abundance of rehab programs available and many were refusing then you can begin to tell me about this being a problem... but right now we have a LACK of rehab programs

Whoa, so i skipped a word reading it.... for a guy that is so peaceful and non-violent, you certainly get real riled-up fast. SLO YO ROW, FOO!!!

because Xian does NOT believe what i believe... he has said as much... and i'm sure he'll respond yet again

here is the part where I speak for the X-man. please forgive me Xian and correct if I am wrong.

he absolutely does believe that rehab should be offered to prisoners and that there are some successes, but he does believe, as do i, that certain conditions and people are not rehabilitatable and that they should not be given a chance to commit a second offense.

and i take an antagonistic stance because xian is a hardheaded asshole when it comes to discussing these issues with me

Xian and I have similar syles of arguing in many ways and approach these issues in closely parrallelled manners. He'll, he is a lawyer, and i am one in training that was raised by a family full of them.

The thing I know about him is that while his style of questioning is argumentative, as is mine often times, he tends to respond in kind. if you get pissed, he will be a dick. if you maintain a level headed discussion and back up your arguments, he remains respectful.

you get pissed, so he is a dick. i can work that way too, admittedly.

and i realize that your views and my views are often very similiar which is why i didnt understand in the other thread why you kept arguing with me

but i still don't understand why you don't think pulling our troops out of iraq is the right thing to do... although that's another subject altogether

that is another discussion indeed.

[PETA]

Originally Posted by Edwin Watson

here is the part where I speak for the X-man. please forgive me Xian and correct if I am wrong.

he absolutely does believe that rehab should be offered to prisoners and that there are some successes, but he does believe, as do i, that certain conditions and people are not rehabilitatable and that they should not be given a chance to commit a second offense.

Yes, I absolutely believe that if one is to get out of the system then one must avail himself of every opportunity to demonstrate rehabilitation. Some can do this and it is a self defining good to see some one get out and make a new and good life for himself. It is important however, to have realistic expectations.

Originally Posted by Edwin Watson

Xian and I have similar syles of arguing in many ways and approach these issues in closely parrallelled manners. He'll, he is a lawyer, and i am one in training that was raised by a family full of them.

The thing I know about him is that while his style of questioning is argumentative, as is mine often times, he tends to respond in kind. if you get pissed, he will be a dick. if you maintain a level headed discussion and back up your arguments, he remains respectful.

you get pissed, so he is a dick. i can work that way too, admittedly.

lol - so true

Originally Posted by Edwin Watson

Whoa, so i skipped a word reading it.... for a guy that is so peaceful and non-violent, you certainly get real riled-up fast. SLO YO ROW, FOO!!!

a peaceful and nonviolent person can still get angry...

here is the part where I speak for the X-man. please forgive me Xian and correct if I am wrong.

he absolutely does believe that rehab should be offered to prisoners and that there are some successes, but he does believe, as do i, that certain conditions and people are not rehabilitatable and that they should not be given a chance to commit a second offense.

that is not what he said

excluding the two exceptions which i have noted time and time again, xian has said that some people CANNOT be rehabilated... which i took to mean that beyond the two exceptions which i have listed and that you have acknowledged and agreed with that people beyond that CANNOT be rehabiliated... and that is different than WILL NOT

and the more that i think about the way that is worded i can see where the misunderstanding comes from... because i'm not speaking about the result of the rehabilitation.. i'm talking about the effort put into it

anyway, i'm glad i got it cleared up even if xian wants to continue to argue about semantics

i really should take some time and post everything you have said privately on the issue xian... because you werent so agreeable before

you started talking about the state and how it's not their duty to rehabilitate people.. and blah blah blah...

[PETA]

Originally Posted by sgx

i really should take some time and post everything you have said privately on the issue xian... because you werent so agreeable before

you started talking about the state and how it's not their duty to rehabilitate people.. and blah blah blah...

We were limiting our discussion to the notion of whether or not this proposition is true....

"Some people cannot or will not be rehabilitated."

If some cannot or will not rehbilitate it stands to reason that some can and will.

[Satchel]

Originally Posted by Edwin Watson

that certain conditions and people are not rehabilitatable and that they should not be given a chance to commit a second offense.

I think a more apt solution would be to give them a chance to improve their situation short of a full relaese.

Originally Posted by xian

We were limiting our discussion to the notion of whether or not this proposition is true....

"Some people cannot or will not be rehabilitated."

If some cannot or will not rehbilitate it stands to reason that some can and will.

but were you or were you not implying that since some cannot be rehabilitated that we shouldnt even bother trying? because that is the impression that i got from you

now if you meant 'cannot' in the sense that we can try and it may not work... then fine, i'll agree with that

but we aren't even trying... and you hopefully acknowledge this

[PETA]

Originally Posted by sgx

but were you or were you not implying that since some cannot be rehabilitated that we shouldnt even bother trying? because that is the impression that i got from you

now if you meant 'cannot' in the sense that we can try and it may not work... then fine, i'll agree with that

but we aren't even trying... and you hopefully acknowledge this

I wasn't implying anything.

However, I do believe that if an LWOP or DP sentence is to be handed down we should demonstrate that the condemned cannot or will not be rehabilitated. If that determination is made then its is a done deal. Does that mean that LWOP felons should be denied work details or classes because they'll never get out? No. Again, I'm saying that, imo, we should determine that some one cannot or will not be rehabilitated before we hand down LWOP or DP.... I'd like to see it a codition precedent (pronounced "pree - cee / dnt")

and how are you going to ensure that happens?

and excuse my ignorance on this subject, but how does someone with LWOP get out of jail? i thought the whole point of LWOP is that they dont get out

[patpx]

I think the author of this thread needs to rehabilitated with a big dose called a reality check.