Not a pat robertson thread

[zerojunkie]

...even better a Gore thread...I think we all know what he said. Now it does seem an awful lot like grand standing when...

McClellan said the Clinton-Gore administration had engaged in warrantless physical searches, and he cited an FBI search of the home of CIA turncoat Aldrich Ames without permission from a judge. He said Clinton's deputy attorney general, Jamie Gorelick, had testified before Congress that the president had the inherent authority to engage in physical searches without warrants.

"I think his hypocrisy knows no bounds," McClellan said of Gore.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=1513570

[PETA]

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

...even better a Gore thread...I think we all know what he said. Now it does seem an awful lot like grand standing when...




http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=1513570

Yeah, I thought Gore's speach was quite amusing given the Gorelick testimony and Ames issue....

This is yet another example of political hay making.


ahead

As I understand things.... the Executive (regardless of which and many have asserted this claim - imo correctly) claims that the authority to issue the authorization for the searches is derrived directly from Article Two. As that is the case (and I thought that is what the Keith decision essentially held) it is not within the scope of the authority of Congress to circumscribe the authority of the Executive through act of Congress... if it could then an equally valid argument would be that the Executive through Executive Order could circumscribe the authority of Congress.... which is absurd. However, and an interesting digression, as the Constitution specifically authorizes Congress to authorize and bring into being our court system.... Congress can circumscribe the scope of authority of the courts....

The fact that the three branches are of equal authority permits each the opportunity to extend their view of what the law says. Congress has spoken on the issue and created the FISA court to speak for Congress as to when and how certain searches should be permitted. FISA courts cannot be voted into existence at the expense of extinguishing Article Two authority (takes an amendment to do that). The Executive - not being a body of 535 people does not require such an elaborate process as FISA to speak with that branche's authority - the Executive can simply sign an order authorizing the taps. FISA does exactly what GW did - the authority simply comes from a different branch.... but the authority to do the searches is still valid and legal.... despite what Mr. Gore would love you to believe and in spite of the fact that he was part and parcel to using the authority in the exact same way as GW.


Judicial and Congretional Review.... the other branches are able to review the act - the warrants. As I noted - I'm of the opinion if Congress can authorize such searches through delegating that authority to permit the searches to an organ of Congress (FISA Court) then the Executive has the same authority to authorize the searches... though I prefer GW not delegate it to an agency like Congress did.

end rant

[Satchel]

God made Gore a hypocrit to punish all of the democrats for their blesphemous secular aspirations.

[PETA]

Originally Posted by Satchel

God made Gore a hypocrit to punish all of the democrats for their blesphemous secular aspirations.

I thought he made him fat to punish him?

[Satchel]

you are confusing Gore with Moore


honest mistake

[thumpcbd]

Originally Posted by Satchel

you are confusing Gore with Moore


honest mistake

They Rhyme, so its easy to do.

[zerojunkie]

Originally Posted by Satchel

you are confusing Gore with Moore


honest mistake

He was looking a bit sasquatch'ish (aka Moore'ish) there for a while.

[Adam D]

Originally Posted by xian

Judicial and Congretional Review.... the other branches are able to review the act - the warrants. As I noted - I'm of the opinion if Congress can authorize such searches through delegating that authority to permit the searches to an organ of Congress (FISA Court) then the Executive has the same authority to authorize the searches... though I prefer GW not delegate it to an agency like Congress did.

I think there's a 4th amendment issue that checks either branch being able to authorize warrantless searches.


On the subject of Gore...I don't know how much he would have known about what Clinton did or did not authorize in his capacity as veep, and even if he did he would have had no ability to stop Clinton from authorizing them. I'm not going to defend Gore, since I don't have much more respect for him than I do for Clinton. That being said, regardless of what administration it is, I would rather searches be conducted with a warrant than without.

[PETA]

Originally Posted by Adam D

I think there's a 4th amendment issue that checks either branch being able to authorize warrantless searches.

Yes there is a 4th Amendment issue. However, as I noted in my comments, each branch gets to issue their take on what it means and act accordingly. Congress uses the mechanism of the FISA court to speak for Congress' opinion of what is and is not reasonable for 4th Amendment purposes while the executive hasn't delegated that responsibility to a subordinate body but retained it in the Executive himeself. Thus, Congress agrees that such searches can be done even if they have created a different method of legitimizing the searches.... FISA is not an Article III court afaik*.... it is a special court created by and used or the purpose of deciding for Congress if search X is reasonable or not....

Originally Posted by Adam D

On the subject of Gore...I don't know how much he would have known about what Clinton did or did not authorize in his capacity as veep, and even if he did he would have had no ability to stop Clinton from authorizing them. I'm not going to defend Gore, since I don't have much more respect for him than I do for Clinton. That being said, regardless of what administration it is, I would rather searches be conducted with a warrant than without.

The Executive Order authorizing the seach is a warrant Adam - it is just issued from the Executive branch rather than the legislative branch (FISA Court) or Judicial (criminal warrant).



*whether Article III judges or not there is some confusion amongst "experts" on this point... some say that FISA judges are appointed by Federal Judges and are therefore Article III Judges themselves... others copntend that the 2 are mutually exclusive etc etc... Wiki has FISA clearly in the list of Article III courts.... what remains true without regard is that FISA is a creation of Congress under Article III section 1... blah blah blah....