German intolerance of Holocaust denial

[BrandonWhat]

A German man deported from the US has gone on trial in the Germany city of Mannheim for alleged Holocaust denial.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6147400.stm

Germar Rudolf published a study saying the Nazis did not use gas to kill Jews at the Auschwitz concentration camp.
The prosecution says he "represented the Holocaust as invention" and used the internet to spread his documents.
If found guilty, Mr Rudolf will face up to five years in prison. He has already been given an jail sentence in a similar case but fled to the US.
A chemistry graduate, 42-year-old Mr Rudolf also faces charges of defaming the memory of the dead.



He was sentenced to 14 months in prison in a similar case in 1995 but fled the country.
His 2000 application for political asylum in the US was rejected and he was deported back to Germany to serve the earlier sentence.


In a similar case in February 2005, British revisionist historian David Irving was found guilty of denying the Holocaust by an Austrian court and sentenced to three years in prison.
________________________________________________



Personally, in terms of poetic justice, I'd like to see anyone who would deny the holocaust directly exposed to the very horrors that transpired at Auschwitz, and then ask them if they still feel compelled to shift against that grain. So it's fortunate that my ideas of poetic justice don't apply to international affairs of the West; but is it entirely reasonable in a system of political justice to sentence someone to half a decade for publishing their opinion? And how is it legal for the Austrian government to try a Brit?

Argentina supposedly smuggled Nazis into its borders, a matter still almost completely unchecked, and Neo-Nazism still runs rampant throughout Belgium, Greece, Croatia, even Germany itself, and Neo-Nazi graffiti is about as deterred by police as street art is here in Dallas--yet some asshole espousing an offensive, irrational and--most importantly--largely disproven claim in writing gets slapped with a prison sentence?

Any elucidations welcome. I'm in the grey here.

[KING SIZE]

i don't agree with how he thinks but i don't think he should be jailed for being an idiot.

[Dionysos]

Originally Posted by boobie f baby

i don't agree with how he thinks but i don't think he should be jailed for being an idiot.

Given how some countries/cultures make a concerted effort to deny & cover up genocides of the past(read up on the Armenian Genocide), I don't have any problem with sending this guy to the slammer for this.

[PETA]

Originally Posted by Dionysos

Given how some countries/cultures make a concerted effort to deny & cover up genocides of the past(read up on the Armenian Genocide), I don't have any problem with sending this guy to the slammer for this.

what other bad thought should land one in the hoosegow?


the corrective measure for idiots in denial is speaking the truth not tossing the idiot in jail - even if my sense of moral justice agrees with you whole heartedly.

[Hustle Wimmins]

Originally Posted by xian

what other bad thought should land one in the hoosegow?


the corrective measure for idiots in denial is speaking the truth not tossing the idiot in jail - even if my sense of moral justice agrees with you whole heartedly.

But speaking the truth is exactly what the moron in question thinks he is doing. Exposing a vast zionist conspiracy and other like minded drivel is his mindset. He knows perfectly well that he espouses hate, but obviously doesn't give a shit. The German government is trying to show him the errors of his misguided ways. Do you really blame them for being a bit touchy in this subject?

Same thing with the Brit in Austria. If I remember correctly, he is being persecuted for saying his thing in Austria, not for just saying it anywhere. I think the EU has alot to do with this and the blurring of jurisdictional lines.

[PETA]

Originally Posted by MrMentallo

But speaking the truth is exactly what the moron in question thinks he is doing. Exposing a vast zionist conspiracy and other like minded drivel is his mindset. He knows perfectly well that he espouses hate, but obviously doesn't give a shit. The German government is trying to show him the errors of his misguided ways. Do you really blame them for being a bit touchy in this subject?

For being touchy? No. For being understandable cautious? No. For criminalizing a belief? Yes, I do.

Originally Posted by MrMentallo

Same thing with the Brit in Austria. If I remember correctly, he is being persecuted for saying his thing in Austria, not for just saying it anywhere. I think the EU has alot to do with this and the blurring of jurisdictional lines.

The guy in question denied the holocaust,was told saty out of Austria and he went in. They arrested him. I disagree with that law but the idiot was quite aware of the consequences of going to Austria.

Not at all clear with what you mean about blurring of jurisdictional lines though?

[Dionysos]

Originally Posted by xian

what other bad thought should land one in the hoosegow?


the corrective measure for idiots in denial is speaking the truth not tossing the idiot in jail - even if my sense of moral justice agrees with you whole heartedly.

I think it's pretty easy to avoid the 'slippery slope' argument on this one. Denying the deaths of millions of people in a mass genocide attempt is a pretty reasonable exception to make imo.

[johnny861]

A prison term for something we take for granted over here, interesting.

[PETA]

Originally Posted by Dionysos

I think it's pretty easy to avoid the 'slippery slope' argument on this one. Denying the deaths of millions of people in a mass genocide attempt is a pretty reasonable exception to make imo.

I agree that there's little slippery slope worry. My point of objection is that this violates a natural right to think what one pleases - even if it is offensive. We criminalize acts - not thoughts. Crime = Mens Rea+Actus Reus. No act no crime.

[Hey Bubu]

Originally Posted by Dionysos

Denying the deaths of millions of people in a mass genocide attempt is a pretty reasonable exception to make imo.

How do you feel about the Mohamed cartoons and the reactions of the Muslims? If you think about it the ideology behind it is not so different, when you think like they do.

[Dionysos]

Originally Posted by xian

I agree that there's little slippery slope worry. My point of objection is that this violates a natural right to think what one pleases - even if it is offensive. We criminalize acts - not thoughts. Crime = Mens Rea+Actus Reus. No act no crime.

I agree almost completely, I just think this is a case where an exception can be made.

Originally Posted by Porkchop Avenger

How do you feel about the Mohamed cartoons and the reactions of the Muslims? If you think about it the ideology behind it is not so different, when you think like they do.

I don't see how that pertains to the subject at hand really; one is someone who is disputing verifiable (and secular) fact and the other is a religious disagreement.

[Krash]

Originally Posted by xian

what other bad thought should land one in the hoosegow?


the corrective measure for idiots in denial is speaking the truth not tossing the idiot in jail - even if my sense of moral justice agrees with you whole heartedly.

Just change the word "jail" for "re-education camp", should get you through the day mate

fwiw, in this case, I'm with Dionysos - it is the exception that proves the rule. Besides which this law is for people that deny this and is for their own safety.

Try standing on Times Square and denying 9/11 happened.

Then times it by about 8000.

Who's the most at risk then? :$

[PETA]

Originally Posted by Krash

Just change the word "jail" for "re-education camp", should get you through the day mate

lol - whatever form of state 'punishment" or "correction" applied it is a violation of personal sovereignty and the right to be an ugly fool

Originally Posted by Krash

fwiw, in this case, I'm with Dionysos - it is the exception that proves the rule.

We've had this discussion before - I knew where you stood. You're wrong

Originally Posted by Krash

Besides which this law is for people that deny this and is for their own safety.

Now there's a great torture worked on the word "safety."

If we are to "re-educate" people for holding obscene beliefs which, when espoused to third parties could get them hurt, then we must consider a great many other things and great many asskickers and asses to be kicked and assess who is right and who is wrong with regard to the proper direction of the kicking v kicked.

It is not the job of Gov't to ensure proper beliefs.... even if improper ones could get one's ass kicked. It is, however, the job of gov't to protect the right of a person to espouse his beliefs however stupid they may be. When the first Amendment is in conflict with the supposed public policy goal of preventing somebody from getting an asskicking the 1st Amendment wins. The Euros are not nearly so big on free speech as Americans so they can get away with it (And no - was not lumping you guys in with the Euros)

Originally Posted by Krash

Try standing on Times Square and denying 9/11 happened.

Then times it by about 8000.

Who's the most at risk then? :$

I doubt those who deny the holocaust are at physical risk for denying it even if the denial does destroy their credibility. Besides - if some ass wants to spout inflamatory shit like that he takes his chances - fuck 'im.

[Hey Bubu]

Originally Posted by Dionysos

I don't see how that pertains to the subject at hand really; one is someone who is disputing verifiable (and secular) fact and the other is a religious disagreement.

It still boils down to a matter of perspective and ideology.

[Dionysos]

Originally Posted by Porkchop Avenger

It still boils down to a matter of perspective and ideology.

No, it really doesn't. You can dig up bones from a mass grave in Europe and show somebody a dead body, regardless of your ideology you can't argue with a skeleton lying in front of you. I know you'd like to believe that all reality is subjective, but there are a few unalterable truths out there.