migrants contribute to the economy

[zcwilly]

Xian's the head chef at the Truth Cafe. Watch the internet foil gibberish around him or else you'll get served.

This statement has been approved by the Council of zcwilly, please refer to Section 6 of the New A&P Posting Rules for further clarification.

Thank you, carry on.

[PETA]

Originally Posted by joe mac

white people are a significant source of racism and bigotry...your point?

that was no substantive response it was race baiting - my point (which should have been abundantly clear) was that illegal aliens are a source of tremendous costs to our economy and our social fabric. When illegals steal, rape and murder they cause great harm. Reducing the number of illegal aliens could reasonably be argued to reduce those costs.

[joe mac]

Originally Posted by xian

that was no substantive response it was race baiting - my point (which should have been abundantly clear) was that illegal aliens are a source of tremendous costs to our economy and our social fabric. When illegals steal, rape and murder they cause great harm. Reducing the number of illegal aliens could reasonably be argued to reduce those costs.

you obviously did not read the link that i posed in the beginning.

[PETA]

Originally Posted by joe mac

you obviously did not read the link that i posed in the beginning.

and you obviously have a big bag of nothing because you refuse to produce a substantive reply - you've got nothing and you can't defend the ideas of others that you peddle - bravo you nitwit

[joe mac]

Originally Posted by xian

that was no substantive response it was race baiting - my point (which should have been abundantly clear) was that illegal aliens are a source of tremendous costs to our economy and our social fabric. When illegals steal, rape and murder they cause great harm. Reducing the number of illegal aliens could reasonably be argued to reduce those costs.

actually it was a substantive response
when you call people 'illegal' you derive such feelings as fear, loathing, etc.

humans are not illegal.
they are undocumented.

on that note
migrants whether documented or not, contribute to our economy.

and to say that only undocumented migrants steal, rape, etc
is a bit much, it only furthers your the uneducated myths surrounding migrants

if you read the link you will see that the immigrants although take 290 million from the state of arizona.
give it back in taxes worth roughly $600 million

now if you had read the link... you might have caught that, no?

the u.s. is a country based on migration whether it is native american or european.
the italians, irish, and germans were hated because they were thought of as not integrating into the u.s. 'culture'

german was almost the official language of our country...

but i guess when the mayflower arrived to the u.s. it went through customs?
haha
or maybe it bought the land it settled on?
haha

[zerojunkie]

No, they're illegal because they're here without permission. Undocumented is just a PC bullshyat way of saying it.

I do have to agree with some of your tenets though. By nature they're undocumented status leads to an inability to gather meaningful statistics about their contributions. While the nearly continuous news about how they deplete various social services is almost inescapable and well documented. I have yet to see a study that comprehensively says their depleting effect on the US economy and social services is greater than their contributions.

[PETA]

Originally Posted by joe mac

actually it was a substantive response
when you call people 'illegal' you derive such feelings as fear, loathing, etc.

humans are not illegal.
they are undocumented.

Undocumented aliens (what a crock term) by their very presence are breaking the law. Therefore they are "illegal aliens." Your attempt to make lawbreaking a warm fuzzy notion is just plain stupid.

What's next... undocumented withrawals from financial institutions? Come on - they needed the money. Give us a break and quit the Ministry of Truth crap.

Originally Posted by joe mac

on that note
migrants whether documented or not, contribute to our economy.

Some do. Some kill people. The issue is this: On whole do illegal immigrants contribute more to our economy than they cost. You offered only one side of the equation and refuse to acknowledge the cost of criminal activity that results from illegal aliens. Further, the economic benefit to the US from illegals is a relativerly constant number while the cost in terms of social services increases annually in terms of new services offered as well as in whole because of the increasing numbers of illegals and then you have the costs of prosecution, incarceration, investigation, damage to real property etc etc etc. If booting every illegal means I have to give up a fucking salad let me know where to sign. If booting ever illegal leads to a job in construction (road, houses etc) for an unemoployed American - where do I sign. Illegals depress the value of a labor wage and cost the tax payers billions anually. Lastly, illegal aliens are called illegal aliens because what they are doing - being here illegally - is fucking illegal.

Originally Posted by joe mac

and to say that only undocumented migrants steal, rape, etc is a bit much, it only furthers your the uneducated myths surrounding migrants

You argue poorly - even when you cut and paste the comments of others. I did not say that only illegal aliens commit crimes. I did not say that all illegal aliens commit crimes against property or person. I said that illegal aliens who are not in the US commit no crimes in the US. I said that many illegals do commit crimes against property and persons. I said that if we booted every fucking illegal then the number of crimes against property or persons committed by illegal aliens would be reduced to zero. Fewer raped and murdered people we can all agree would be better than more of them.

Originally Posted by joe mac

if you read the link you will see that the immigrants although take 290 million from the state of arizona.
give it back in taxes worth roughly $600 million

How much did it cost to house them in Maricopa County jail? etc etc

Originally Posted by joe mac

now if you had read the link... you might have caught that, no?

the u.s. is a country based on migration whether it is native american or european.
the italians, irish, and germans were hated because they were thought of as not integrating into the u.s. 'culture'

two key points here

1) legal immigration
2) assimilation

you argue for illegal immigration and for no assimilation by supporting bilingual policies which only serve to create cultural ghettos.

Originally Posted by joe mac

german was almost the official language of our country...

Actually that's a bit of propganda circulated prior to WWI when the US wasn't sure which side to come in and support...

http://www.watzmann.net/scg/german-by-one-vote.html
http://www.snopes.com/language/apocryph/german.htm

Originally Posted by joe mac

but i guess when the mayflower arrived to the u.s. it went through customs?
haha
or maybe it bought the land it settled on?
haha

This again is no arhument - its just stupid. Every inch of occupied land was taken from some one else at some point.

You are again arguing that if you can find a lawbreaker somewhere else then the lawbreaking of illegals is currently justified. The alleged guilt of a third party is no defense to your own. You've asserted no defense to law breaking by illegals you simply try to play a stupid and easily unveiled hide the ball game.

What is important today is that we are a nation of laws and violation of those laws receives sanction. Illegal Aliens are law breakers on top of being a net negative to our economy. The cost of their presence cannot justify the inherent lawlessness of their presence. Why not tell them to immigrate to that amazing state of Venezuela anyway?




if this shit is the best you've got - please stop wasting everyone's time with it

[I AM EL-NINO]

Originally Posted by xian

Undocumented aliens (what a crock term) by their very presence are breaking the law. Therefore they are "illegal aliens." Your attempt to make lawbreaking a warm fuzzy notion is just plain stupid.

What's next... undocumented withrawals from financial institutions? Come on - they needed the money. Give us a break and quit the Ministry of Truth crap.



Some do. Some kill people. The issue is this: On whole do illegal immigrants contribute more to our economy than they cost. You offered only one side of the equation and refuse to acknowledge the cost of criminal activity that results from illegal aliens. Further, the economic benefit to the US from illegals is a relativerly constant number while the cost in terms of social services increases annually in terms of new services offered as well as in whole because of the increasing numbers of illegals and then you have the costs of prosecution, incarceration, investigation, damage to real property etc etc etc. If booting every illegal means I have to give up a fucking salad let me know where to sign. If booting ever illegal leads to a job in construction (road, houses etc) for an unemoployed American - where do I sign. Illegals depress the value of a labor wage and cost the tax payers billions anually. Lastly, illegal aliens are called illegal aliens because what they are doing - being here illegally - is fucking illegal.



You argue poorly - even when you cut and paste the comments of others. I did not say that only illegal aliens commit crimes. I did not say that all illegal aliens commit crimes against property or person. I said that illegal aliens who are not in the US commit no crimes in the US. I said that many illegals do commit crimes against property and persons. I said that if we booted every fucking illegal then the number of crimes against property or persons committed by illegal aliens would be reduced to zero. Fewer raped and murdered people we can all agree would be better than more of them.



How much did it cost to house them in Maricopa County jail? etc etc



two key points here

1) legal immigration
2) assimilation

you argue for illegal immigration and for no assimilation by supporting bilingual policies which only serve to create cultural ghettos.



Actually that's a bit of propganda circulated prior to WWI when the US wasn't sure which side to come in and support...

http://www.watzmann.net/scg/german-by-one-vote.html
http://www.snopes.com/language/apocryph/german.htm



This again is no arhument - its just stupid. Every inch of occupied land was taken from some one else at some point.

You are again arguing that if you can find a lawbreaker somewhere else then the lawbreaking of illegals is currently justified. The alleged guilt of a third party is no defense to your own. You've asserted no defense to law breaking by illegals you simply try to play a stupid and easily unveiled hide the ball game.

What is important today is that we are a nation of laws and violation of those laws receives sanction. Illegal Aliens are law breakers on top of being a net negative to our economy. The cost of their presence cannot justify the inherent lawlessness of their presence. Why not tell them to immigrate to that amazing state of Venezuela anyway?




if this shit is the best you've got - please stop wasting everyone's time with it

pawnage! Glad to see him get his ass handed to him here as well.

[joe mac]

Originally Posted by xian

Undocumented aliens (what a crock term) by their very presence are breaking the law. Therefore they are "illegal aliens." Your attempt to make lawbreaking a warm fuzzy notion is just plain stupid.

What's next... undocumented withrawals from financial institutions? Come on - they needed the money. Give us a break and quit the Ministry of Truth crap.



Some do. Some kill people. The issue is this: On whole do illegal immigrants contribute more to our economy than they cost. You offered only one side of the equation and refuse to acknowledge the cost of criminal activity that results from illegal aliens. Further, the economic benefit to the US from illegals is a relativerly constant number while the cost in terms of social services increases annually in terms of new services offered as well as in whole because of the increasing numbers of illegals and then you have the costs of prosecution, incarceration, investigation, damage to real property etc etc etc. If booting every illegal means I have to give up a fucking salad let me know where to sign. If booting ever illegal leads to a job in construction (road, houses etc) for an unemoployed American - where do I sign. Illegals depress the value of a labor wage and cost the tax payers billions anually. Lastly, illegal aliens are called illegal aliens because what they are doing - being here illegally - is fucking illegal.



You argue poorly - even when you cut and paste the comments of others. I did not say that only illegal aliens commit crimes. I did not say that all illegal aliens commit crimes against property or person. I said that illegal aliens who are not in the US commit no crimes in the US. I said that many illegals do commit crimes against property and persons. I said that if we booted every fucking illegal then the number of crimes against property or persons committed by illegal aliens would be reduced to zero. Fewer raped and murdered people we can all agree would be better than more of them.



How much did it cost to house them in Maricopa County jail? etc etc



two key points here

1) legal immigration
2) assimilation

you argue for illegal immigration and for no assimilation by supporting bilingual policies which only serve to create cultural ghettos.



Actually that's a bit of propganda circulated prior to WWI when the US wasn't sure which side to come in and support...

http://www.watzmann.net/scg/german-by-one-vote.html
http://www.snopes.com/language/apocryph/german.htm



This again is no arhument - its just stupid. Every inch of occupied land was taken from some one else at some point.

You are again arguing that if you can find a lawbreaker somewhere else then the lawbreaking of illegals is currently justified. The alleged guilt of a third party is no defense to your own. You've asserted no defense to law breaking by illegals you simply try to play a stupid and easily unveiled hide the ball game.

What is important today is that we are a nation of laws and violation of those laws receives sanction. Illegal Aliens are law breakers on top of being a net negative to our economy. The cost of their presence cannot justify the inherent lawlessness of their presence. Why not tell them to immigrate to that amazing state of Venezuela anyway?




if this shit is the best you've got - please stop wasting everyone's time with it

and you fail to acknowledge the failed U.S. led neoliberal model that makes people migrate to the USA.

"pawnage! Glad to see him get his ass handed to him here as well."

[joe mac]

Originally Posted by I AM EL-NINO

pawnage! Glad to see him get his ass handed to him here as well.

haha, not really.

[joe mac]

Originally Posted by xian

Undocumented aliens (what a crock term) by their very presence are breaking the law. Therefore they are "illegal aliens." Your attempt to make lawbreaking a warm fuzzy notion is just plain stupid.

What's next... undocumented withrawals from financial institutions? Come on - they needed the money. Give us a break and quit the Ministry of Truth crap.

Some do. Some kill people. The issue is this: On whole do illegal immigrants contribute more to our economy than they cost. You offered only one side of the equation and refuse to acknowledge the cost of criminal activity that results from illegal aliens. Further, the economic benefit to the US from illegals is a relativerly constant number while the cost in terms of social services increases annually in terms of new services offered as well as in whole because of the increasing numbers of illegals and then you have the costs of prosecution, incarceration, investigation, damage to real property etc etc etc. If booting every illegal means I have to give up a fucking salad let me know where to sign. If booting ever illegal leads to a job in construction (road, houses etc) for an unemoployed American - where do I sign. Illegals depress the value of a labor wage and cost the tax payers billions anually. Lastly, illegal aliens are called illegal aliens because what they are doing - being here illegally - is fucking illegal.



You argue poorly - even when you cut and paste the comments of others. I did not say that only illegal aliens commit crimes. I did not say that all illegal aliens commit crimes against property or person. I said that illegal aliens who are not in the US commit no crimes in the US. I said that many illegals do commit crimes against property and persons. I said that if we booted every fucking illegal then the number of crimes against property or persons committed by illegal aliens would be reduced to zero. Fewer raped and murdered people we can all agree would be better than more of them.

How much did it cost to house them in Maricopa County jail? etc etc

two key points here

1) legal immigration
2) assimilation

you argue for illegal immigration and for no assimilation by supporting bilingual policies which only serve to create cultural ghettos.

Actually that's a bit of propganda circulated prior to WWI when the US wasn't sure which side to come in and support...

http://www.watzmann.net/scg/german-by-one-vote.html
http://www.snopes.com/language/apocryph/german.htm

This again is no arhument - its just stupid. Every inch of occupied land was taken from some one else at some point.

You are again arguing that if you can find a lawbreaker somewhere else then the lawbreaking of illegals is currently justified. The alleged guilt of a third party is no defense to your own. You've asserted no defense to law breaking by illegals you simply try to play a stupid and easily unveiled hide the ball game.

What is important today is that we are a nation of laws and violation of those laws receives sanction. Illegal Aliens are law breakers on top of being a net negative to our economy. The cost of their presence cannot justify the inherent lawlessness of their presence. Why not tell them to immigrate to that amazing state of Venezuela anyway?

if this shit is the best you've got - please stop wasting everyone's time with it

did you realize prisons in Arizona are privatized?

coming from a guy who has probably never visited the 'true' Latin America beyond puerta vallarta or cancan, nor understands his own countrys geo-politics or others for that matter.
doesn't really show for much.

but last i checked the mayflower never had to go through customs...

man, i sure do love me some white priviledge, manifest destiny...

haha

[joe mac]

Originally Posted by xian

Further, the economic benefit to the US from illegals is a relativerly constant number while the cost in terms of social services increases annually in terms of new services offered as well as in whole because of the increasing numbers of illegals and then you have the costs of prosecution, incarceration, investigation, damage to real property etc etc etc.

you argue for illegal immigration and for no assimilation by supporting bilingual policies which only serve to create cultural ghettos.

This again is no arhument - its just stupid. Every inch of occupied land was taken from some one else at some point.

What is important today is that we are a nation of laws and violation of those laws receives sanction. Illegal Aliens are law breakers on top of being a net negative to our economy. The cost of their presence cannot justify the inherent lawlessness of their presence. Why not tell them to immigrate to that amazing state of Venezuela anyway?

if this shit is the best you've got - please stop wasting everyone's time with it

i agree with you, you should stop wasting everyone's time with your racist, bigotry like, uneducated, myth enduced ideologies.

[PETA]

Originally Posted by joe mac

did you realize prisons in Arizona are privatized?

I asked about Maricopa County jail - which is not a prison. Further,tax payer dollars still fund the cost of those prisons regardless of who does the administration. So whether Arizona prisons are privitized or not it has no bearing on my point. The incarceration o fillegal aliens costs tax payers millions and millions annually.

Originally Posted by joe mac

coming from a guy who has probably never visited the 'true' Latin America beyond puerta vallarta or cancan,

I've never seen any of it. Were not discussing what Latin America is or is not. We're discussing illegal aliens here in the US and the costs vs benefits of those illegal aliens. As such my familiarity (or complete lack thereof as the case may be) with Mexico is irrelevent.

Originally Posted by joe mac

nor understands his own countrys geo-politics or others for that matter.
doesn't really show for much.

haha

Originally Posted by joe mac

but last i checked the mayflower never had to go through customs...

man, i sure do love me some white priviledge, manifest destiny...

haha

This is what you call substance?

What does the Mayflower have to do with the costs of illegal aliens in the United States anyway?

Manifest Destny? How in the world is that related?

Please try to stay on topic.

Originally Posted by joe mac

i agree with you, you should stop wasting everyone's time with your racist, bigotry like, uneducated, myth enduced ideologies.

Racist? wtf. You can't offer a reasoned and substantive response so you call me names?

I offered you lots and lots of facts to comment on - why don't you pick one of those to respond to rather than tossing out non sequiturs and hurling ugly and inaccurate epithets?

[BigBallinColin]

this topic is a mary-go-round there is no real way to do a cost benifit assesment. although there are many reasons to find ways to halt "undocumented immigration". I for one have no idea on how to solve that though.

[zerojunkie]

Originally Posted by xian

Some do. Some kill people. The issue is this: On whole do illegal immigrants contribute more to our economy than they cost. You offered only one side of the equation and refuse to acknowledge the cost of criminal activity that results from illegal aliens. Further, the economic benefit to the US from illegals is a relativerly constant number while the cost in terms of social services increases annually in terms of new services offered as well as in whole because of the increasing numbers of illegals and then you have the costs of prosecution, incarceration, investigation, damage to real property etc etc etc.

To agree with this notion you have to make the presumption that all the new illegal aliens coming here are welfare baby's and aren't contributing to the economy.

Originally Posted by xian

If booting every illegal means I have to give up a fucking salad let me know where to sign. If booting ever illegal leads to a job in construction (road, houses etc) for an unemoployed American - where do I sign.

It won't, it would mean the labor costs associated with each and every facet of the economy that employs illegal immigrants will adjust. I don't think it would simply mean your salad gets more expensive. You could even be talking about a fairly widespread recession. Not to mention long term estimates by economists predict that if the birthrate continues the rate it has in the past decades we won't have enough indigenous citizens to maintain the rate of economic expansion we've enjoyed in the last century, take that for what you will.

Originally Posted by xian

Illegals depress the value of a labor wage and cost the tax payers billions anually.

Yes, but how much do the tax payers save by the reduced costs of labor?

Originally Posted by xian

Lastly, illegal aliens are called illegal aliens because what they are doing - being here illegally - is fucking illegal.

This is a circular argument because quotas that are setup to allow people in legally don't reflect the current reality we see in the economy.