Here is an Est. on US Civilian/Contractor casualties in Iraq

[E-Nice]

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Bullshit zcwilly.

Most contractors are security, truck drivers and engineers. There is 4 civilian security guys for every engineer outside the wire.

The military has grunts/MPs & plain ol soldiers for security. It has drivers and engineers. they get paid around 22k on average (most are e1-e4).
their contractor counterparts get paid 100k (thats what the average security firm pays). How the fuck do we save money? How are you going to square that on this board without sounding ignorant?

[LaVitaBella]

Originally Posted by zcwilly

$80K a year is hardly a ridiculous amount of money when your life is at stake. Yes, it may seem like the military pays them alot, but in reality they are saving money by outsourcing the extra work for a limited amount of time. The alternative is the gov't buys all of these trucks, tractors, bobcats, and other equipment and then what do they do with them when the war is over? Upkeep, fuel, shipping them back, etc. it would cost a fortune.

It's like if you own a Christmas tree farm and only ship your product 1 month out of the year, it makes more sense to outsource the work to other trucking companies then to buy 25 trucks, trailers, hire drivers, get insurance, the list goes on..

That is in theory, anyway. I have heard the allegations that alot of this money was mishandled and unnaccounted for, but that's a whole 'nother thread.

you are a fucking idiot. yea we have 3 civilians that do the EXACT same thing that I do...EXCEPT they do not have to convoy out and they are making $75,000 more than I am. Unless a direct mortar were to hit our base, they have not been in danger at all.

[randyc]

OK,
Does any MILITARY truck driver want to do the job for the extra 50k as a civ?
Remember, you don't get to carry. You also don't get any post-conflict bennies.

Thought so.

I had this conversation again and again and again. Every time I walked in the F'ing D-fac.
"You guys get paid alot, huh?"
"I don't know, define alot."
"I'm doing the same job as you and I get paid 20k."
"Ok, here's the number to the recruiter at ITT. Once you finish your bit as a GI, come back and get your six figures, hotshot."
"Fuck that, I'll never come back to this shitty country again."
"Then why are we having this conversation?"

For every civilian that doesn't leave the base, there are multiple servicemembers that don't. Do you guys think that every single person in the military kicks doors and runs the roads?

My first gig there, I lived, ate, and worked with Iraqis. There were 100 Americans and up to 500 Iraqis at a time on our compound. MANY of them turned out to be insurgent. There are no front lines in Iraq and no place is safe. Some are surely more dangerous than others.

At any rate, me being there kept some service member back here. Go ahead and pull every civ out of Iraq. What happens next is that several guard units will be mobilized.

[hepkatmama]

contractors do not have to be kept on for exactly 2 or 4 years. some stay less, some way more. they do not get life insurance or va benefits. most of them do not get to carry weapons to defend themselves. the contractors that do carry are called mercenaries. as hardcore as boot camp was for u.s. soldiers, u can't tell me that the african & e. europeans who have been shooting ppl since they were jr. hi age don't have years of life experience worth the extra cash.

i am very worried about the american soldiers over there. i know they do what they can to take care of themselves & fulfill the mission. but soldiers are only as good as the equipment and care they are given. soldiers should look at the contractors as a piece of expensive equipment bought by the feds to help them. its sad ppl take capitalist competition into a warzone. if one of u gets killed it doesn't matter how much u were paid to be there.

so its true a redneck with a ged can get a gig as a contractor & be paid more than the colonel. but the redneck's life is worth just as much. its not fair that one gets medical & insurance benefits & one doesn't. they are both risking their life.

this is all a ridiculous argument anyways. those numbers are complete bs. the fed calculate combat fatalities the same way they add up the $45 meals. its a spin for the benefit of the public.

if we realized how many enlisted SOLDIERS have been killed & permanently injured, shipped back to the states & told that the definition of combat injury is too narrow to help the widow... its just sad. so many brave ppl getting screwed on the flight home.

i'm sorry but if the personnel transport driving behind the one i'm riding in gets blown up & my transport flips over & i lose an arm... its utter bullshit to write the injury off as a traffic accident & cut my va benefits. so if the truck NEXT to you blows up & hits u, u weren't hit by the bomb, but a fender bender ?!!?? this has happened MANY MANY MANY times. google it.

its a very very old trick to fool the soldiers by playing race cards & economics. see if its contractors vs. soldiers then maybe u'll be too busy to realize who put u both in harms way.

[zcwilly]

In response to both of your allegations that I am "an ignorant idiot":

I was speaking specifically about truck drivers in this case, which I thought was pretty clear about, and I'm looking at it strictly from a logistical and economical perspective. If you read the examples that I gave, there are other costs and risks the military incurs then just the driver's wages:

How much does buying a truck that you will only use for six months to a year cost? (you don't have to buy the equipment with contractors)
How much is the upkeep/maintenence on that truck? (don't have to worry about this with contractors)
What about the cost of shipping the equipment to Iraq? Or out of Iraq? (Again, contractors take care of this)
How long are service members employed by the governement? (Contractors are used as needed, service members are in it for a longer period of time)
How much do the families of the service members get paid when they are killed? (Contractors families don't get anything from the Gov't)
How much does health insurance cost for a service member and his family? (Not paid to contractors)
How much does it cost to train the soldier to drive a big rig? (Contractors already have the expertise)

The bottom line here is the amount of time involved. If you only need these services for a limited amount of time, then it makes more sense to contract the extra work out. If you need these services in the longer term, which doesn't seem to be the case right now, then increases should be made in personnell and equipment.

[combatcarpenter]

Originally Posted by xian

So we underpay our servicemen and officers? We should pay them more.
Since when have these been a disputed notions?

Speaking as a civilian contractor who has spent the last 18 months in Afghanistan, I can sincerely say that with a couple of exceptions, you people are all fucking idiots. I am also a disabled veteran who served in the first Gulf War, so I don't need to hear anything about not serving. In fact, I believe that I am still serving, a sentiment shared by the soldiers I live and work with. As far as the compensation goes, the industry standard is around $84,000.00 a year. What you probably don't know is that we work seven days a week, at least 12 hours a day for four straight months before we get one day off. And unlike our soldiers, we are required to stay out of the United States 300 days a year to maintain a tax-free status. I did my time willingly, and made a lot less money than today's specialist. And I am far more technically proficient than 90 percent of the soldiers who perform the same job. I am a union trained carpenter with 12 years of experience. I can design build anything from the ground up, independent of any supervision. These facts, as well as many I won't bore you with, explain why I can say in no uncertain terms that I am, if anything, underpaid. I can't do a damn thing about military pay and allowances, except to offer this advice: Learn a trade and do what I did. Man up and get on a plane to Afghanistan or Iraq. Talk is STILL cheap.

[combatcarpenter]

Originally Posted by zcwilly

In response to both of your allegations that I am "an ignorant idiot":

I was speaking specifically about truck drivers in this case, which I thought was pretty clear about, and I'm looking at it strictly from a logistical and economical perspective. If you read the examples that I gave, there are other costs and risks the military incurs then just the driver's wages:

How much does buying a truck that you will only use for six months to a year cost? (you don't have to buy the equipment with contractors)
How much is the upkeep/maintenence on that truck? (don't have to worry about this with contractors)
What about the cost of shipping the equipment to Iraq? Or out of Iraq? (Again, contractors take care of this)
How long are service members employed by the governement? (Contractors are used as needed, service members are in it for a longer period of time)
How much do the families of the service members get paid when they are killed? (Contractors families don't get anything from the Gov't)
How much does health insurance cost for a service member and his family? (Not paid to contractors)
How much does it cost to train the soldier to drive a big rig? (Contractors already have the expertise)

The bottom line here is the amount of time involved. If you only need these services for a limited amount of time, then it makes more sense to contract the extra work out. If you need these services in the longer term, which doesn't seem to be the case right now, then increases should be made in personnell and equipment.

I don't know which contractor you worked for, but I work for the largest one involved in the fracas ( I think you'll figure it out), and they don't pay for a thing. All costs and expenses are passed on to the client (read: Army) after an obscene markup. Furthermore, the conditions in the region are undescribable. Vehicles don't have a very long life expectancy. Add to that the cost of shipping vehicles 8,000 miles to get them to the country, and then try and deliver them to forward deployed units, and the idea of using Army vehicles for most applications is not feasable.

[Nyteshade]

Originally Posted by combatcarpenter

Speaking as a civilian contractor who has spent the last 18 months in Afghanistan, I can sincerely say that with a couple of exceptions, you people are all fucking idiots. I am also a disabled veteran who served in the first Gulf War, so I don't need to hear anything about not serving. In fact, I believe that I am still serving, a sentiment shared by the soldiers I live and work with. As far as the compensation goes, the industry standard is around $84,000.00 a year. What you probably don't know is that we work seven days a week, at least 12 hours a day for four straight months before we get one day off. And unlike our soldiers, we are required to stay out of the United States 300 days a year to maintain a tax-free status. I did my time willingly, and made a lot less money than today's specialist. And I am far more technically proficient than 90 percent of the soldiers who perform the same job. I am a union trained carpenter with 12 years of experience. I can design build anything from the ground up, independent of any supervision. These facts, as well as many I won't bore you with, explain why I can say in no uncertain terms that I am, if anything, underpaid. I can't do a damn thing about military pay and allowances, except to offer this advice: Learn a trade and do what I did. Man up and get on a plane to Afghanistan or Iraq. Talk is STILL cheap.

You got a day off? Most of the servicemen don't get a day off the entire time they are there. I would also love to know how an army E-4 makes more than $84k. Even after getting all the allowances, I topped out at $3200 a month.

[zcwilly]

Originally Posted by combatcarpenter

I don't know which contractor you worked for, but I work for the largest one involved in the fracas ( I think you'll figure it out), and they don't pay for a thing. All costs and expenses are passed on to the client (read: Army) after an obscene markup. Furthermore, the conditions in the region are undescribable. Vehicles don't have a very long life expectancy. Add to that the cost of shipping vehicles 8,000 miles to get them to the country, and then try and deliver them to forward deployed units, and the idea of using Army vehicles for most applications is not feasable.

Hey, I never said there wasn't any pillaging going on, there is no question there is corruption. I'm simply saying that, in some circumstances (if the rules are followed), it is better to outsource the work then to do it yourself.

I will say this though, after what you said above I read up on it some more, and I was wrong about one presumption:
I was assuming that the Army was paying on a per load or fixed price formula (as the gov't does in the states), when in actuality they are paying based on a "cost-plus" contract where the more costs the contractor incurs, the more profit they make. That being said, I still think there are benefits to outsourcing some of this work to private companies, we just need more oversight.

[LaVitaBella]

Originally Posted by Nyteshade

You got a day off? Most of the servicemen don't get a day off the entire time they are there. I would also love to know how an army E-4 makes more than $84k. Even after getting all the allowances, I topped out at $3200 a month.

I think that is a tad far fetched as an E-4 I was making less than 20 a year and I do not make anything close to $84K as an O1-E now. This year will be a little under that but that is because of my deployment.

[combatcarpenter]

Originally Posted by Nyteshade

You got a day off? Most of the servicemen don't get a day off the entire time they are there. I would also love to know how an army E-4 makes more than $84k. Even after getting all the allowances, I topped out at $3200 a month.

Don't get a day off? How about every Sunday, every soldier? How about standing watch once every three days for 3 hours for the QRF? Please, don't try and discount my argument by discounting me. (Argumentum ad Hominum fallacy) When I said I did my time willingly, I was talking about the 13 months I spent as an E3/E4 during the first Gulf War. And yes, the kids these days make a hell of a lot more than we did. Not bitchin, just stating a fact. If you have any comment to make that addresses my post, feel free to reply.

[combatcarpenter]

Originally Posted by zcwilly

Hey, I never said there wasn't any pillaging going on, there is no question there is corruption. I'm simply saying that, in some circumstances (if the rules are followed), it is better to outsource the work then to do it yourself.

I will say this though, after what you said above I read up on it some more, and I was wrong about one presumption:
I was assuming that the Army was paying on a per load or fixed price formula (as the gov't does in the states), when in actuality they are paying based on a "cost-plus" contract where the more costs the contractor incurs, the more profit they make. That being said, I still think there are benefits to outsourcing some of this work to private companies, we just need more oversight.

no doubt, contractors are an essential, integral part of the American warfighting strategy. As the C.O. of the last ODA team I worked for told us, contractors are Force Multipliers, allowing them to concentrate on the task at hand. as far as the oversight goes, the unnamed contractor awarded the non-competitive, open ended contract acts with carte blanche. Might have a little to do with the texas G.O.B.N. (Good Ol' Boy Network)......

[combatcarpenter]

Originally Posted by LaVitaBella

I think that is a tad far fetched as an E-4 I was making less than 20 a year and I do not make anything close to $84K as an O1-E now. This year will be a little under that but that is because of my deployment.

Once again, the Army officer misses the point. And as far as the money goes, it's off subject, but still deserves addressing. I too, make more when deployed. You made a point for me. Although when at home, I'm smart enough to work Union, I still make a good living. And as a prior enlisted officer, you should realize that you are essentially the same as me. Someone who gets paid more for their technical prowess and scope of knowledge. The only difference is, I got out of the service. I still walk the same ground, live in the same tents, eat at the same DFAC, and get outside the wire more than some military members in theater. I work downrange exclusively, so don't try next to question that.

[combatcarpenter]

Originally Posted by randyc

OK,
Does any MILITARY truck driver want to do the job for the extra 50k as a civ?
Remember, you don't get to carry. You also don't get any post-conflict bennies.

Thought so.

I had this conversation again and again and again. Every time I walked in the F'ing D-fac.
"You guys get paid alot, huh?"
"I don't know, define alot."
"I'm doing the same job as you and I get paid 20k."
"Ok, here's the number to the recruiter at ITT. Once you finish your bit as a GI, come back and get your six figures, hotshot."
"Fuck that, I'll never come back to this shitty country again."
"Then why are we having this conversation?"

For every civilian that doesn't leave the base, there are multiple servicemembers that don't. Do you guys think that every single person in the military kicks doors and runs the roads?

My first gig there, I lived, ate, and worked with Iraqis. There were 100 Americans and up to 500 Iraqis at a time on our compound. MANY of them turned out to be insurgent. There are no front lines in Iraq and no place is safe. Some are surely more dangerous than others.

At any rate, me being there kept some service member back here. Go ahead and pull every civ out of Iraq. What happens next is that several guard units will be mobilized.

amen, bro.

[combatcarpenter]

Originally Posted by boobie f baby

and i'm highly fucking against that and i think it's disgusting. actually more than that i think it's shameful that our troops have to roll around protecting contractors who are getting paid ridiculous amounts of money to do jobs that should be for the military.

If there was anyone in the military who could perform my job, maybe that would be a viable option. I not only bring previous battlefield experience (which, as anyone who has been there should know, is priceless), but I bring 12 years of technical construction experience not provided by my military service. You obviously have no idea what we do in a battle zone, or you wouldn't go around running your silly mouth. Let me explain: I fly out of Bagram Airfield exclusively at the request of the military, not my employer. I have no say in where I go. I am not armed, even though all of my work is performed downrange, outside the wire (how about you?) Damn it, I've gotta go for now. But never fear, your education will continue.....