You said RealID wasn't real

[WaitingForATrain]

http://news.com.com/FAQ+How+Real+ID+...tml?tag=st.num

[djetaine]

and?
i dont see why this is a problem at least not in its current state.
The moment they add rfid's to them ill be screaming but so its a drivers license that works all over the country, wheres the harm?

[PETA]

the only problem I see is cost to the states... otherwise requiruing that state IDs be nationally uniform seems pretty basic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_id

[edit] Data that must be included on the license or ID card

Each card must include, at a minimum:


The person's full legal name.

The person's date of birth.

The person's sex.

The person's driver's license or identification card number.

A photograph of the person's face.

The person's address of principal residence.

The person's signature.

Physical security features designed to prevent tampering, counterfeiting, or duplication of the document for fraudulent purposes.

A common machine-readable technology, with defined minimum data elements (the details of which are not spelled out, but left to the Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Secretary of Transportation and the states, to regulate).


Documentation required before issuing a license or ID card
Before a card can be issued, the applicant must provide the following documentation:


A photo ID, or a non-photo ID that includes full legal name and birthdate.

Documentation of birthdate.

Documentation of legal status and Social Security number.

Documentation showing name and principal residence address.

Digital images of each identity document will be stored in each state DMV database.


Linking of license and ID card databases


Each state must agree to share its motor vehicle database with all other states. This database must include, at a minimum, all the data printed on the state drivers' licenses and ID cards, plus drivers' histories (including motor vehicle violations, suspensions, and points on licenses). Any state that does not link its database, containing records on all drivers and ID holders, to the database of the other states loses its federal funding.

yada yada yada - there's no demand for information that isn't already held by the government afaik

willing to listen to challenges to that notion but tempest in a tea kettle this seems to me as far as challenging liberty but very useful as a data tool

[Nyteshade]

So your DL will be attached to your SS#? OH NOES!!!!

Newsflash, you already have a federal ID#.

[zerojunkie]

We never said it wasn't real, just that it wasn't worth getting your panties in a twist about.

[WaitingForATrain]

Let me ask you this. Exactly what does it solve? It's going to be spending a shitload of money for something that isn't even going to work.

Xian, most likely they are going to contain RFID chips. Passports have them now currently. Future editions of greencards are also going to have them.

What happens when you loose the card? You want someone who has access to all of your shit? This is my biggest concern because I don't want all of my marbles in one basket to just end up getting it stolen or lost.

[60secondape]

Originally Posted by Kaliente

Let me ask you this. Exactly what does it solve? It's going to be spending a shitload of money for something that isn't even going to work.

Xian, most likely they are going to contain RFID chips. Passports have them now currently. Future editions of greencards are also going to have them.

What happens when you loose the card? You want someone who has access to all of your shit? This is my biggest concern because I don't want all of my marbles in one biggest to just end up getting it stolen or lost.

Exactly... it poses a whole new set of problems that I'm sure they already have a solution for. Implants.

[zerojunkie]

Originally Posted by Kaliente

Let me ask you this. Exactly what does it solve? It's going to be spending a shitload of money for something that isn't even going to work.

Xian, most likely they are going to contain RFID chips. Passports have them now currently. Future editions of greencards are also going to have them.

What happens when you loose the card? You want someone who has access to all of your shit? This is my biggest concern because I don't want all of my marbles in one basket to just end up getting it stolen or lost.

Yeah, the feds have mandated the state governments spend a shitload of money...which is why this effort hasn't gotten very far off the ground. The purpose (and at the recommendation of the 9/11 commission) of the law was to bring states like Kentucky up-to-date with states like Texas with what they required on the id's themselves and secondly what forms of identification you needed to get them in the first place. Texas' IDs are Real ID compliant. Do you really think a state government is going to spend more money it doesn't have to go with something as unproven as RFID's?

[PETA]

Originally Posted by Kaliente

Let me ask you this. Exactly what does it solve?

Makes information more redaily available to law enforcement and creates an impediment to both fakes IDs and illegally obtaining "true" IDs.

Originally Posted by Kaliente

It's going to be spending a shitload of money for something that isn't even going to work.

Money yes, not work no.

Originally Posted by Kaliente

Xian, most likely they are going to contain RFID chips.

When the demand from Congress for RFIDs happens let me know. Until then the sky isn't falling. On a techie aspect - from how far away are those things detectable? As I understand it - not very. That being the case what is the concern even if they were required?

Originally Posted by Kaliente

Passports have them now currently.

Mine doesn't

Originally Posted by Kaliente

Future editions of greencards are also going to have them.

I've got zero problem with better methods of tracking people who are here only with the leave of the State. There is no right to permission to be in the US if you are no US citizen.

Originally Posted by Kaliente

What happens when you loose the card?

Which card? DL, Passport or Greencard?

Originally Posted by Kaliente

You want someone who has access to all of your shit?

What shit?

Originally Posted by Kaliente

This is my biggest concern because I don't want all of my marbles in one basket to just end up getting it stolen or lost.

Well don't put all of your marbles in one basket and make them easily removeable then. This card won't make the demand of all your marbles in one basket.

[WaitingForATrain]

Originally Posted by xian

Makes information more redaily available to law enforcement and creates an impediment to both fakes IDs and illegally obtaining "true" IDs.

I find this to be blatantly false. I can say with confidence this is not going to get rid of the problem. You know why? How are people getting around having ID's now? They pay people for the legit ID or SS#. People are going to get craftier and be able to forge documents with greater precision.

When the demand from Congress for RFIDs happens let me know. Until then the sky isn't falling. On a techie aspect - from how far away are those things detectable? As I understand it - not very. That being the case what is the concern even if they were required?

I can't give you an exact number on how far they can be detected, but I can tell you they can be easy to copy and forge.

Mine doesn't

That doesn't make it any less real. They still exist. link

I've got zero problem with better methods of tracking people who are here only with the leave of the State. There is no right to permission to be in the US if you are no US citizen.

I take this as a personal insult because you make it seem like I am a second tier member of society. For what? Because I was not born here? Due to this governments LAZINESS, I am not able to, go to college, get a legit job, get my own apartment, or walk out on the streets. They are effectively taking away all of my freedoms.

Which card? DL, Passport or Greencard?

This is the whole point of the discussion. They are all going to be embedded into one card eventually to "easier" use.

What shit?

Your name, address, ss#, residency status, telephone number and other pertinent information. You want someone to walk by you with a cheap $200 laptop and be able to steal your identity?

Well don't put all of your marbles in one basket and make them easily removeable then. This card won't make the demand of all your marbles in one basket.

So you've never gotten anything stolen from you ever? Keep in mind these cards transmit signals that can be received by anyone with the proper equipment. Again, it is inexpensive to do it and anyone can do it. What happens when someone steals your identity just passing by you at the airport? Then what?

With all of that said, I present to you the following article

[PETA]

Originally Posted by Kaliente

I find this to be blatantly false. I can say with confidence this is not going to get rid of the problem.

I didn't say it would eliminate any problem. If passing a law eliminated a problem we'd have no crime. This provides an impediment to getting a legal but false ID. it makes it harder for bad guys to appear legit. It imposes no new duty or intrusion on good guys.

Originally Posted by Kaliente

You know why? How are people getting around having ID's now? They pay people for the legit ID or SS#. People are going to get craftier and be able to forge documents with greater precision.

This law creates a modestly stricter standard and uniform informational requirements etc. It won't eliminate fake IDs but it'll make it harder to get them.

Originally Posted by Kaliente

I can't give you an exact number on how far they can be detected, but I can tell you they can be easy to copy and forge.

If the chip is that easily forged and/or rendered useless what reason or value would the gov't have in requiring a useless addition?

Originally Posted by Kaliente

That doesn't make it any less real. They still exist. link

From what I could gather... the RFID chip would store ID info for the passport carrier? It is not detectable at any distance out of sight of the carrier. It would make it more difficult to carry fake passports - which is afaik - a felony. The data encrypted would be data already available just more quickly accesible... meaning that bad guys would have another impediment to doing bad things while regular people would have zero new intrusions into their privacy.

Originally Posted by Kaliente

I take this as a personal insult because you make it seem like I am a second tier member of society.

I take it you are not a citizen? If so, you are not a second tier in value as a human - but you are here only with permission. Citizenship is a privilege.

Originally Posted by Kaliente

For what? Because I was not born here? Due to this governments LAZINESS, I am not able to, go to college, get a legit job, get my own apartment, or walk out on the streets. They are effectively taking away all of my freedoms.

Then go to your home state and enjoy all the additional freedoms you'd find there. Do not piss and moan that a state that is hosting you is not coddling you.

Originally Posted by Kaliente

This is the whole point of the discussion. They are all going to be embedded into one card eventually to "easier" use.

OK. If it can be done safely and successfully such that medical information could be immediately accessable to EMTs etc that'd be cool too. There is no new intrusion to privacy with this. What's new is how quickly the data is available.

Originally Posted by Kaliente

Your name, address, ss#, residency status, telephone number and other pertinent information. You want someone to walk by you with a cheap $200 laptop and be able to steal your identity?

So you've never gotten anything stolen from you ever? Keep in mind these cards transmit signals that can be received by anyone with the proper equipment. Again, it is inexpensive to do it and anyone can do it. What happens when someone steals your identity just passing by you at the airport? Then what?

The data theft point - I am 100% in agreement with you on that point. Data security is a wholely new issue that our legislators are woefully ill equipped to address and act upon. This needs greater discussion and education amongst those who would establish policy.

[WaitingForATrain]

Originally Posted by xian

I didn't say it would eliminate any problem. If passing a law eliminated a problem we'd have no crime. This provides an impediment to getting a legal but false ID. it makes it harder for bad guys to appear legit. It imposes no new duty or intrusion on good guys.

Fair enough. Your original argument however is still up for debate. Your argument was that it creates an impediment towards obtaining legit documents. It won't prove any more difficult than it is now. I've seen documents forged first hand and can tell you with certainty it'll probably be easier due to the fact everything is stored in one easy to read card.

If the chip is that easily forged and/or rendered useless what reason or value would the gov't have in requiring a useless addition?

Microsoft said their Xbox's were unhackable. They also said Vista's validation algorithms were unhackable. Look what happened. For the moment, the RFID's information can only be read and copied to another document. New information cannot be written unless the government does it. Leave it to the imagination of a few smart engineers and there will be a way. When they find that way, there will be millions to be made in forged documents. It's the same reason new encryption algorithms are being made obsolete almost as soon as they are made available.

From what I could gather... the RFID chip would store ID info for the passport carrier? It is not detectable at any distance out of sight of the carrier. It would make it more difficult to carry fake passports - which is afaik - a felony. The data encrypted would be data already available just more quickly accesible... meaning that bad guys would have another impediment to doing bad things while regular people would have zero new intrusions into their privacy.

Tampering with any government document is a felony. You are correct. However as I mentioned, take into account the airports. If I accidentally bumped into you because I was late for my flight, you would never guess I snagged your information just by bumping into you. For people traveling a lot, this poses a great risk. Any criminals actually traveling take the time to make sure their documents look legit and are legit, so your argument is kind of null.

I take it you are not a citizen? If so, you are not a second tier in value as a human - but you are here only with permission. Citizenship is a privilege.

Then go to your home state and enjoy all the additional freedoms you'd find there. Do not piss and moan that a state that is hosting you is not coddling you.

Here is my situation. My greencard was stolen a while back. I never got around to replacing it until after I graduated high school. As a result I only got by on my SS# and my TDL. When my SS# was stolen, I had to get it replaced. To get my ss# replaced I need my greencard which I don't have.

I had to file to get it replaced and almost 2 years later, still nothing has changed despite numerous calls to their office. Now let me ask you. I have been in TX since I was 3 months old. I went to school everyday and don't have a record aside from a couple of traffic tickets. You don't see something wrong with this picture? People from other countries get in faster and get background checks faster than I can get my shit replaced and I've been here 24 years.

Essentially because someone doesn't want to get off their figurative fatass and set me up with an appointment, I can't get my stuff taken care of. I would sue them and get it taken care of sooner, but guess what? I don't have an attorney because I don't have a "legit" job.

Oh and for the record, I paid for the appointment and paid for whatever necessary items were needed beforehand.

OK. If it can be done safely and successfully such that medical information could be immediately accessable to EMTs etc that'd be cool too. There is no new intrusion to privacy with this. What's new is how quickly the data is available.

I don't care that they can input medical data into them. If they could make this 100% foolproof, I'd maybe consider it. You still have to take into consideration what would happen if you lost the card or got it stolen. You really have no idea how much of a pain in the ass it is unless you live through this first hand.

I'm literally at the mercy of the government because all of my stuff got stolen.

The data theft point - I am 100% in agreement with you on that point. Data security is a wholely new issue that our legislators are woefully ill equipped to address and act upon. This needs greater discussion and education amongst those who would establish policy.

Unlucky for me, I am not eligible to vote or take part in politics as much as I would like, due to my status as a permanent resident. Once this greencard issue is taken care of, you can bet I will be filing for Citizenship and making sure that not just my people but everyone is empowered.

Too much bullshit goes on because many people who are actually able to think and use logic are not able to do so.

[PETA]

Originally Posted by Kaliente

Here is my situation. My greencard was stolen a while back. I never got around to replacing it until after I graduated high school. As a result I only got by on my SS# and my TDL. When my SS# was stolen, I had to get it replaced. To get my ss# replaced I need my greencard which I don't have.

I had to file to get it replaced and almost 2 years later, still nothing has changed despite numerous calls to their office. Now let me ask you. I have been in TX since I was 3 months old. I went to school everyday and don't have a record aside from a couple of traffic tickets. You don't see something wrong with this picture? People from other countries get in faster and get background checks faster than I can get my shit replaced and I've been here 24 years.

I can appreciate that you're a decent fellow and that there's no reason you shouldn't be granted citizenship ... so why did you never apply to become a citizen in those 24 years and this current hassel avoid?



and... all of your points regarding security of the data I agree with

[WaitingForATrain]

Originally Posted by xian

I can appreciate that you're a decent fellow and that there's no reason you shouldn't be granted citizenship ... so why did you never apply to become a citizen in those 24 years and this current hassel avoid?



and... all of your points regarding security of the data I agree with

I know I have absolutely no one to blame but myself for not taking care of this when it wasn't a problem. Due to logistics I was not able to do so until recently. Night work, moving, etc.

It just pisses me off that people who actually want to do something with their life can't. I know plenty of people who are going through the same thing and it sucks for all parties involved.

[PETA]

Originally Posted by Kaliente

I know I have absolutely no one to blame but myself for not taking care of this when it wasn't a problem. Due to logistics I was not able to do so until recently. Night work, moving, etc.

It just pisses me off that people who actually want to do something with their life can't. I know plenty of people who are going through the same thing and it sucks for all parties involved.

well - that's a plenty fair complaint - I can agree that our immigration policy and adminstration needs some pretty significant change