911: LIHOP or MIHOP?

[60secondape]

Everyone has their own opinions obviously, but I pose a question to those who are more open to this information. From the information I have seen, it appears to be a LIHOP scenario. That is the administration may have Let It Happen On Purpose as outlined in Webster Tarpley's book 9/11 Synthetic Terror: Made in USA or the obviously loftier theories that the government my have Made It Happen On Purpose? I think there is room for intelligent debate within this realm for those who have truly researched all of the factors around 911.

[zerojunkie]

dammit....this thread is useless without pancakes or french toast...I mean freedom toast....mmmm ihop....



Yeah, the government let it happen, like Pearl Harbor. Then again hindsight is always 20/20.

[Nyteshade]

The idea that the governement let it happen is both
a) Far more likely than the idea that the government did it themselves and
b) nearly impossible to prove since you have to place a line between stupidly being blind and intent.

While it would be infinitely easier to do, this could never be proven beyond reasonable doubt so let's not bother.

[60secondape]

Originally Posted by Nyteshade

The idea that the governement let it happen is both
a) Far more likely than the idea that the government did it themselves and
b) nearly impossible to prove since you have to place a line between stupidly being blind and intent.

While it would be infinitely easier to do, this could never be proven beyond reasonable doubt so let's not bother.

I agree. To what degree is subjective, but there is definitely evidence of complicity for the benefit of a political/ economic agenda. I sympathize with a lot of points within the "truth movement" but I also agree there is mounds of bullshit. I'm no where near as hardcore as some of those people, but I respect their commitment. I also feel that it is a distraction on some levels from the real corruption and complicity Webstar Tarpley outlines. There is some very level headed, educated and experienced political analysis within this book, I highly advise people check it out.

[david austin]

their there they're

there are a test in the UB is needed 4 you

[PETA]

If the gov't let it happen on purpose... then:

1) who knew and let it happen
2) for what purpose
3) why was this a better route than others at acheiveing that same purpose
4) how have they still kept it a secret

why do these answers better explain what happened on 9/11 than...

A bunch of crazy terrorists flew planes into buildings, took credit for it and explained why they did it w/no knowledge of the US Gov't.

[I AM EL-NINO]

They let Pearl Harbor just happen too.

[Funkenstein]

Call me koo koo for cocoa puffs, but I don't see a direct path back to the government for this effect at all (maybe that is how good a cover up they did?).

I know that we have had some rather trying times and that covert political posturing has been done (Nixon, Kennedy, Reagan and "Uncle" Ollie), but I don't think that the sacrifice of X amount of people (what was the final tally of occupants on 9/11 at both towers?) was something someone could get 1234567890 people to keep silent on.

If it was bigger machine behind the scenes that was running things, I "might" be able to see it. By bigger machine, I mean a government link that is so outside that the only way to know it was a government link would be to trace transactions and phone calls to other parties connected to the party in question. This party would then serve as the conduit for information to the terrorists to know the when and the where and then ultimately carry out the wishes of the parent organization without fail (or even if failure occurs, the parent organization can disavow all knowledge of those actions).

It just seems to me that if the scenario I gave was even remotely dead on (pardon the pun) that it would have gone all "Bay of Pigs" by now and hit the public eye and ear. Too many people want to be a hero and out the government to have a lid kept on something SO EXTREME in this day and age.

[Sinner]

Extremist Muslims had been trying to do it for years. No one thought they would succeed. They did.

[PETA]

Originally Posted by MicahB

Extremist Muslims had been trying to do it for years. No one thought they would succeed. They did.

well they did get a second bite at that apple

[Sinner]

Originally Posted by xian

well they did get a second bite at that apple

"That's, like... you're opinion, man...."
-Dude (The Big Lebowski)

[PETA]

Originally Posted by MicahB

"That's, like... you're opinion, man...."
-Dude (The Big Lebowski)

reminds me of Floyd from True Romance (Brad Pitt): Don't condenscend me, man. I'll fuckin' kill ya, man.

[PETA]

If the gov't let it happen on purpose... then:

1) who knew and let it happen
2) for what purpose
3) why was this a better route than others at acheiveing that same purpose
4) how have they still kept it a secret

why do these answers better explain what happened on 9/11 than...

A bunch of crazy terrorists flew planes into buildings, took credit for it and explained why they did it w/no knowledge of the US Gov't.




"just answer the question(s) Claire"

feel free to provide a link following your answer so we can look up where you got it - but don't expect us to dig through that stuff in some vain hope of knowing what point you were trying to make

[60secondape]

2) for what purpose

I would presume massive amounts of money, just to play devils advocate...

WALL STREET JOURNAL: BUSH SR. IN BUSINESS WITH BIN LADEN FAMILY CONGLOMERATE THROUGH CARLYLE GROUP
FAMILY HAD RENOUNCED TIES TO TERRORIST SON BUT FAMILY STILL UNDER FBI INVESTIGATION


Carlyle's way
Making a mint inside "the iron triangle" of defense, government, and industry


The ex-presidents' club
It is hard to imagine an address closer to the heart of American p ower. The offices of the Carlyle Group are on Pennsylvania Avenue in Washington DC, midway between the White House and the Capitol building, and within a stone's throw of the headquarters of the FBI and numerous government departments.


CHRONOLOGY: The Bushes And The Carlyle Group
The Carlyle Asian investment fund that received the $50 million sum from Connecticut also retains former president Bush as a top adviser


JUDICIAL WATCH TO FILE FOIA LAWSUIT TODAY OVER CARLYLE GROUP DOCUMENTS
Former President Bush Works for International Investment Firm With Ties To Saudi Arabia


CalPERS, Carlyle profit from Afghan war
Carlyle counts among its chieftains former Defense Secretary (and deputy CIA Director) Frank Carlucci, former Secretary of State James Baker and, most notably, former President George Bush.


Arms Buildup Enriches Firm Staffed by Big Guns
Defense: Ex-president and other elites are behind weapon-boosting Carlyle Group.


The George W. Bush Money Tree
The Carlyle Group. The elder George Bush reportedly has an equity stake in this firm, which is run by leading members of his presidential administration.


Crony Capitalism Goes Global
William Conway, managing director and co-founder of the Carlyle Group, was talking recently about the media coverage of his bank and the cast of ex-Presidents and former officials, including George H.W. Bush, James Baker III and Frank Carlucci, on its payroll.


MIDEAST TERROR WAR ADDS URGENCY TO CARLYLE GROUP CONTROVERSY
Former President Bush Works for International Investment Firm With Ties To Saudi Arabia


How the Pentagon Learned to Love the Weapon No One Wanted
The Carlyle Connection

I'm not stating that any of this did take place but if it did, I seriously doubt it was 1234567890 people. More like 200-300 with any direct negligence/ criminal intent being centralized in a group of maybe 15-25 high ranking officials. The shit happens all the time, but noone cares when we pull black ops in some 3rd world country. It's not like the reality of how this could be done is completely unfounded. A lot of covert operations are approved with a wink and a nod, it's part of the business.

3) why was this a better route than others at acheiveing that same purpose

I highly advise you watch a film by Howard Zinn called Hijacking Catastrophe: 9/11, Fear And The Selling Of American Empire as someone suggested earlier.

References:

Blueprint for Military Conquest: Project for the New American Century,"Origins of Regime Change in Iraq," Joseph Cirincione, 30 March
Bush planned Iraq 'regime change' before becoming President, Neil Mackay
Biblical Vengeance in the 21st Century: Iraqis Slaughtered, Islam Slandered, Humanity Demeaned John Stanton
The president's real goal in Iraq, Jay Bookman
What's behind war on terrorism? Norm Dixon
Eleventh hour lies mount as war approaches , Larry Chin
Understanding the U.S. War State, John McMurtry

4) how have they still kept it a secret

I think when you can at least understand a true middle ground to the aforementioned information, there is SOME validity to these arguments. To what degree? I think few people, if any, are in a position to really say. Including you.

why do these answers better explain what happened on 9/11 than...

Complicity is more probable than the official story. Ask yourself why one of the main whistelblowers in the FBI John O'Neil who was threatening to call out several high ranking officials was sent to work at the World Trade Center on septemeber 11th. His very first day. PBS did a great documentary on it called "The Man Who Knew".

Then of course you have the Richard Armitage fiasco:

"Some circles in the US see a linkage between the recent high-profile visit of Mr. Richard Armitage, US Deputy Secretary of State, to New Delhi, the unpublicised visit of Mr.George Tenet, Director of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), to Islamabad where he had an unusually long meeting with Gen. Pervez Musharraf, the self-styled Chief Executive of Pakistan, and the surprise decision of the Government of India to invite the General to New Delhi for talks without any longer insisting on the stoppage of Pakistani support to cross-border terrorism as a pre-condition for a resumption of the bilateral dialogue at the political level. Mr. Armitage, who had spent some years of his career in the CIA/DIA and holds the highest Pakistani civil decoration that could be awarded to a foreigner for his role during the Afghan war of the 1980s, has a large circle of friends in the Pakistani military and the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) Directorate."

Reference:
MUSHARRAF: FROM CIA WITH LOVE?
South Asia Analysis Group, 25 May 2001

A bunch of crazy terrorists flew planes into buildings, took credit for it and explained why they did it w/no knowledge of the US Gov't.

Our country weilds more control over media in 3rd world countries than that countries own government in some places. Bush just approved an infowar on iran remember? It's not like it is completely impossible is all I am saying. You make it out like it is completely crazy.

[PETA]

again, answer the question directly


if your answer is "to make money" then tell me:

1) who is going to make this money?
2) how are they going to make it
3) why was 9/11 the best way to acheive that goal

such that the answers to 1-3 make more sense than the accepted explanation that crazy terrorists did it, claimed that they did it and explained why.