US troops being deployed to Georgia

[PETA]

Originally Posted by BradH

Hmmm, I thought Russians were fairly happy nowadays and love Putin? He is putting them back on the world stage as a major player again.

Also it comes down to the 'world police' argument. Are we the good guy?

To be clear, I am not saying Russia doesn't do shady shit, but I think the US is King of Shady at the moment.

A lot of Russians do love Putin. He's rekindled a very strong nationalistic spirit and cultivated it well. Part of that is reclaiming empire. I, up until now, hesitatingly supported his despotic manner and method because I thought he has the Russians best interests at heart and was not really intent on military expansion. That seems now to have been a foolish notion to hold.

We wear the white hat make no mistake and let no idiot tell you otherwise.

We are shady for toppling Saddam and helping them establish a democracy free from torture chambers and rape rooms? (before you go the "Bush lied" route - http://www.bercasio.com/movies/dems-wmd-before-iraq.wmv - the problem here is that the Dems were right when they said these things - they just chose to do a 180 for political reasons even if GW didn't. )

Or are we shady for toppling the Taliban who gave aid and support to AQ eho declared war on the US and made a bunch of spectacular attackas that killed thousands of Anericans?

Or are you thinking of something else?

[BradH]

I'm cool with the Afghanistan invasion. No reason to argue that as long as all the facts remain true for our reasons behind the invasion.

Iraq, not so much. But my point wasn't necessarily about Iraq, but more or less everything else we are doing --- perhaps indirectly associated with Iraq. If you want to argue torture and rape rooms versus suicide bombings in markets and occupation of your country by a foreign force... we could do that.

War on terror; extraordinary rendition, secret prisons, torture, Guantanamo, etc.
The political corruption; most notably with the GOP leaders and cabinet, the judicial scandal, GOP is above the law, etc.


King o shady!

[PETA]

Originally Posted by BradH

Iraq, not so much. But my point wasn't necessarily about Iraq, but more or less everything else we are doing --- perhaps indirectly associated with Iraq. If you want to argue torture and rape rooms versus suicide bombings in markets and occupation of your country by a foreign force... we could do that.

I don't follow

Originally Posted by BradH

War on terror; extraordinary rendition, secret prisons, torture, Guantanamo, etc.
The political corruption; most notably with the GOP leaders and cabinet, the judicial scandal, GOP is above the law, etc.

would be perfectly happy to discuss all of those things but start a new thread for it

Short version though.... rendition is perfectly legal and a policy Clinton started - I support it.

The War on Terror because it is asymmetrical and non-analogous to previous wars probably does need a lot of haggling to work out the policy guidelines we should follow. But that's exactly what's been going on between Congress, POTUS and SCOTUS the past 6+ years. Have there been fuck-ups? Absolutely. But in general I think we're pretty good at not being even rem,otely like a state like Russia - the only onles who blieve that are American hating internationalist lefties who need a punch in the mouth (that was fun to say )

The GOP is clearly not above the law when you look at how many of those idiots were forced out of Congress, indicted etc.. and good riddance to that trash too.

[mali]

Originally Posted by xian

No we cannot agree. There is no reasonable comparison between Russia and the US. Putin still runs Russia - it is a gangsterdictatorship run by the mob and the KGB with aggressive expansionist policies and a gangster kleptoeconomy. There's no conmparison to be made.

Yes, I forgot we have a great man that runs this country. And ever a better one to come. Our government is the mob haha. I have nothing against Putin, he is a great leader for Russia and they love and respect him. Poor Bush is laughed at by the whole world.

Ok, ive said enough, no need for me to further elaborate. We can go back and forth all night my good man.

[BradH]

Mali is a Communist!

[PETA]

Originally Posted by Mali

Yes, I forgot we have a great man that runs this country. And ever a better one to come. Our government is the mob haha. I have nothing against Putin, he is a great leader for Russia and they love and respect him. Poor Bush is laughed at by the whole world.

Ok, ive said enough, no need for me to further elaborate. We can go back and forth all night my good man.

to draw any kind of equivalence between the US and Russia is silly

to switch your argument to the reltive approval ratings of the leaders within their respetive countries is a non sequitur

Poor Bush saw pro US govb't elected in Italy, Germany and France. Easter europe has been very pro-America throughout his term because they remember the Soviets and aren't silly enough to think the US is anything like them. States like Ukraine and Georgia aren't laughing at us.

Hell, states like Iran and Syria aren't either - their looking for cover.

Most of the world has admitation for us - look how many people are trying to get here. Those wgho hate us usually have reason to fear us. When you look at that list (Sudan, N Korea, Iran etc.... its a pretty good list to be hated by)

get your thinking out of 2003 and join thje rest of us in 2008

[mali]

Originally Posted by BradH

Mali is a Communist!

Nah, more like a realist. Matter of fact I dislike politics for the most part, by the way I need to borrow your professional camera. Just for a few days.

[mali]

Originally Posted by xian

to draw any kind of equivalence between the US and Russia is silly

to switch your argument to the reltive approval ratings of the leaders within their respetive countries is a non sequitur

Poor Bush saw pro US govb't elected in Italy, Germany and France. Easter europe has been very pro-America throughout his term because they remember the Soviets and aren't silly enough to think the US is anything like them. States like Ukraine and Georgia aren't laughing at us.

Hell, states like Iran and Syria aren't either - their looking for cover.

Most of the world has admitation for us - look how many people are trying to get here. Those wgho hate us usually have reason to fear us. When you look at that list (Sudan, N Korea, Iran etc.... its a pretty good list to be hated by)

get your thinking out of 2003 and join thje rest of us in 2008

You sound like a cnn reporter.

[johnny861]

Originally Posted by Mali

Getting closer and closer...

[-m-]

I think Putin's main concern with Georgia joining NATO is us having a buddy's back yard through which to spy on Russia. I'm all for that. I also think this invasion may have something to do with the oil pipeline that's coming through there. In any case I think we're doing the right thing here because Russia wouldn't dare risk things escalating with us and will act right with us in the middle of that nonsense.

[PETA]

Originally Posted by Mali

You sound like a cnn reporter.

yikes!

you sound like a blame America first without bothering to check the facts internet splooger

[PETA]

Originally Posted by -m-

I think Putin's main concern with Georgia joining NATO is us having a buddy's back yard through which to spy on Russia. I'm all for that. I also think this invasion may have something to do with the oil pipeline that's coming through there. In any case I think we're doing the right thing here because Russia wouldn't dare risk things escalating with us and will act right with us in the middle of that nonsense.

Georgia wasn't on schedule to join NATO though. Balloons had been floated that's about it.

As for oil - see Jonny's comments and mine agreeing with him (gasp) plus the links I added. Oil pipeline transfer fees have a great deal to do with this.

We see eye to eye on this - weirdness abounds - chinchillas dance with llamas and all get drunk and pass out.

[Adam D]

Originally Posted by Mali

And to clear things up, Georgia invaded Russia first on the opening day of the Olympics. Georgia launched a surprise attack on an independent, autonomous region, South Ossetia, killing civilians and Russian peacekeepers. It is being spun by the MSM here in the west that Russia invaded Georgia.

South Ossetia is Georgian territory. Russia has been (illegally) maintaining a military presence there since Georgia declared independence. Although it may be "independent" and "autonomous" it still resides within Georgian, not Russian borders. Russia has been fueling separatism there (ironically while fighting the same in Chechnya) and Georgia moved in to maintain it's territory.

While I don't deny the US has motives in a clearly detached Georgia, Russia equally has motives in taking back pieces of the empire.

[BradH]

holy shit, press vehicle under fire
(not the lady shot in arm video)

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe...hot/index.html

[umalak_]

these men and women were found marching through Moscow

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/1...e1c214evm4.jpg