war w/ russia?

[Deff Gordon]

Originally Posted by clay donkey

Really china's economy is better than ours right now.

china is a dirt poor place. you have no idea what you are talking about.

[zerojunkie]

Originally Posted by Sexual Chocolate

I'm not one to tune in to that tinfoil frequency but I remember hearing those musings back during the 90s as well. The hilarity to all that is 1) that is a hell of a pretense to work up, 2) a hell of a pretense to keep working for almost a DECADE (remember the unrest socially and FINANCIALLY that they have suffered in all sectors), and 3) a hell of a pretense to try to reel back in without drawing HUGE suspicion.

Letting the nukes go, dismembering their fleets, and overall kowtowing to the Western demands is totally against the old Russia MO, so while it makes for great laughs, I (like you) place no stock in that.

If they show up with a Metal Gear, I'll gladly eat my words, though.

haha, whether intentional or not they certainly seem to be headed back toward tyranny.

[St. Stalin the Apathetic]

Originally Posted by Mali

Its clear that America supports Georgia. Actually let me put it in a more realistic sense. Big country founds small country to start something that the big country wont.

Similar scenario as Kosovo. Except Serbia is not Russia.

Furthermore, Poland is the next little fish we will keep in our pond. But be careful as that pond is slowly drying out.

Wow....

Yes, we support Georgia. We support freely elected fledgling democracies that embrace pro-western free-market policies. We've been trying to get them into NATO for some time. Our support is not new nor difficult to discern. Georgia, following the UK, sent the more troops to Iraq than any of our other allies.

This is not similar to Kosova - this is Russia trying to reclaim the near abroad and reabsorb Georgia if not de jure then de facto through intimidation and force.

This is about Russia wanting to secure and control energy sources coming out of central asia and the caucusus in order to use that control to influence policy in the West - with the EU dependant on Russian energy Russia can get away with a lot more bullying. This is a big first step in that direction. This is about Russian pride in reclaiming a role as a super power. This is about Russian pride in reclaiming lost empire.

Poland is a state that has been beaten up by Russia, Germany, Prussia and Austro-Hungary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitions_of_Poland) many times. They were restored to indepenant status after WWI and reshackeled to the USSR after WWII. They are quite reluctant to become a client state to Russia again. They have moved quickly and remarkably from a backwater Soviet satellite to a free market economy with a freely elected liberal deomcracy for a government and have seen tremendous improvments in the quality of life for its people. We support them because its the right thing to do. The alternative is turning our back and permitting Russia to swallow them up again... a cowardly choice imo. Give Poland the tools to grow and defend herself - she'll do well - especially now that she's part of NATO we have a duty to defend.

[transplant]

Thought this might be a relevant news update:

Story Highlights
NEW: Rice calls Russian objections 'pathetic,' demands retreat from Georgia

Agreement will base U.S. ballistic missile interceptors in Poland

Patriot missiles are defensive, not aimed at anyone, Rice says

Russia warns missile battery opens Poland to attack


http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe...ile/index.html

[Deff Gordon]

what we need to do is have a war and invite everybody we know

[St. Stalin the Apathetic]

Originally Posted by transplant

Russia warns missile battery opens Poland to attack

Russian bluff and bluster. The missile battery is defensive. And cannot defeat nukes.

Is Russia really serious that Poland's installation of missiles (that cannot harm Russia) is a threat to Russia because it may be able to defeat some of Russia's conventional missiles should Russia feel like attacking Poland?

"Hey.... you're threatening me by not permitting me the opportunity to kick your ass at will"

[Ash]

I smell a Red Dawn sequel coming up.


Red Dawn II-Soviet Bugaloo

[DjKrispy]

Originally Posted by -m-

If anything happens it'll be with NATO coalition of forces. The Europeans aren't liking this one bit and this is in their backyard. I doubt a full scale war will come of it unless the Russians try to get really silly. I don't know though, the pipeline and having a beach head for the west to spy on them seems like high stakes for Russia at a time when Putin is really trying to become an international player.

I don't see why the damn Europeans don't get into this crap more often. Probably because we're always the first to get into it, or they probably do and we don't hear about it.

[St. Stalin the Apathetic]

Originally Posted by DjKrispy

I don't see why the damn Europeans don't get into this crap more often. Probably because we're always the first to get into it, or they probably do and we don't hear about it.

No, because we do, they don't and generally they try to keep us from doing. Many of our NATO allies are a bunch of pussies who receive great benefit with little to no obligation... Iceland doesn't even have a military (save a coast guard). The biggest contribution of member states (excepting the UK) is them permitting us to have bases on their territory in order to ensure their territorial sovereignty. Most members are unable to defend themselves individually in any capacity and again excepting the UK its likely NATO couldn't defend itself collectively w/out the US.

[transplant]

Originally Posted by xian

Russian bluff and bluster. The missile battery is defensive. And cannot defeat nukes.

Is Russia really serious that Poland's installation of missiles (that cannot harm Russia) is a threat to Russia because it may be able to defeat some of Russia's conventional missiles should Russia feel like attacking Poland?

"Hey.... you're threatening me by not permitting me the opportunity to kick your ass at will"

I kind of wondered the same thing? Why is it a threat to Russia, exactly?

[St. Stalin the Apathetic]

Originally Posted by transplant

I kind of wondered the same thing? Why is it a threat to Russia, exactly?

They aren't.

These missiles are useful only in shooting down certain types incoming missiles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIM-104_Patriot they are interceptor missiles

So, in order to be a threat to Russia Russia must claim that Poland being able to shoot down a limited class of incoming Russian missiles is a threat to Russia. Not a very sound argument is it?

[Robin T. Fine]

Originally Posted by clay donkey

umalak, Its people like you that start 90% of all wars.
politics pulling on my heart strings. There are none left to pull after bush.

Which I find humorous since he is so "kill them kindness" all up and down my Blockboster thread.

[zerojunkie]

Originally Posted by xian

They aren't.

These missiles are useful only in shooting down certain types incoming missiles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIM-104_Patriot they are interceptor missiles

So, in order to be a threat to Russia Russia must claim that Poland being able to shoot down a limited class of incoming Russian missiles is a threat to Russia. Not a very sound argument is it?

I'm pretty sure they're part of the new missile-defense shield we've been working on with more vigor for the last decade, and they are designed to intercept ICBM's. The missile base goes to Poland the radar installation in the Czech Republic. The Russians are convinced this is designed to neutralize their nuclear deterrent, but I thought that most ICBM's launched at us would take a circumpolar route as it's the shortest path between the US and Russia. The US has maintained it's to provide a deterrent against Iran should it's rocketry program ever stop sucking. Russia's angry it's ace in the hole is going to be neutralized...we'd be pissed too, tbh.

[St. Stalin the Apathetic]

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

Russia's angry it's ace in the hole is going to be neutralized...we'd be pissed too, tbh.

That's they're assertion. This system can't take down ICBMs with MRVs or MIRVs. They can take out scuds and the like.

Russia is full of shit about this eliminating any nuclear first strike deterrent. They are correct that the system would defend against other missile attacks.

[zerojunkie]

Originally Posted by xian

That's they're assertion. This system can't take down ICBMs with MRVs or MIRVs. They can take out scuds and the like.

Russia is full of shit about this eliminating any nuclear first strike deterrent. They are correct that the system would defend against other missile attacks.

No, it can, or is at least billed to be able to destroy an ICBM in it's boost phase. They're well past the PATRIOT missile system.

This is probably the most likely candidate that's being installed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-...Defense_System


And here's a cool fucking picture from the article.