Do Atheists need a church of their own?

[Keith P]

Originally Posted by J. Fees

how many times has science been disproven over the years?

the def of religion from wiki(which i know is not the best source)-

A religion is a set of tenets and practices, often centered upon specific supernatural and moral claims about reality, the cosmos, and human nature, and often codified as prayer, ritual, or religious law. Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and religious experience. The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction.

the bolded seems like it could fit atheism.

How? There are no rituals.

[J. Fees]

if there was a church or gathering situation for atheists, those would be considered rituals right?

[Keith P]

Originally Posted by J. Fees

if there was a church or gathering situation for atheists, those would be considered rituals right?

I think church is being used as a metaphor in this context. Not in reference to a literal group of worshippers. More a club or a place for open forum or sharing of ideas.

They hold conventions every year but that obviously isn't accessible for everyone.

[KING SIZE]

i just think its funny that atheists end up doing the same bullshit that the theists do.. people are fuckin people. no matter what bullshit they say, it all comes down to the same thing in the end.

[>]

Originally Posted by J. Fees

well, if you really believe in science, they you have faith in science, just like religion. How many times has science been disproven over the last 50 years? remember, science never proves anything it disproves. What science knows maybe in some way a repeatable process, but the amount that we know is so miniscule, that it would be impossible to ever disprove religion or its tenants.

atheism is just another religion.

Completely ridiculous. Taking a fact, and understanding that fact, is not the same is having faith in the fact that was proven, or having faith that a fact will come to be. To say "I have faith in science" means you are blindly going to believe anything and everything sceince. Science and faith have NOTHING to do with each other.

[charlie brown]

Originally Posted by Scott Phrenetik

Do you have examples of these facts and where science has disproved them? And, are you talking about "the church" in terms of the pope/Catholicism or the Bible?

yes I was referring the the catholic church in specific: earth being the center of the universe, the age of the earth, etc

[J. Fees]

Originally Posted by Robin T. Fine

Completely ridiculous. Taking a fact, and understanding that fact, is not the same is having faith in the fact that was proven, or having faith that a fact will come to be. To say "I have faith in science" means you are blindly going to believe anything and everything sceince. Science and faith have NOTHING to do with each other.

so everything that you've learned through science you have proven or disproven? Not everyone that believes in Christianity believes everything in the bible.

[>]

Originally Posted by J. Fees

so everything that you've learned through science you have proven or disproven? .

Pretty much!

[Keith P]

Originally Posted by J. Fees

so everything that you've learned through science you have proven or disproven?

You did so all throughout gradeschool.

[zerojunkie]

Originally Posted by BradH

It is impossible to disprove something fantastically fictional such as a higher power. I'm pretty sure even Dawkins admits this. But the burden doesn't lie on atheists to disprove god... we only acknowledge there is no proof of a god, therefore one does not exist. Fantastic miracles like the "big bang" are not proof of a higher power at work, only that we do not fully understand such scenarios at this point in time. How many times in history has science advanced the prior beliefs of the church? How many times in history has the church been a detriment to scientific advancement? [And still is?]

It's funny that while people disregard evolution or a scientific explanation of the big bang, while on the other hand believe in a creationism story and Adam and Eve and all the other bullshit. And that we communicate telepathically to our creator overlord, hoping for his grace as we accept him into our hearts! OHHH WE WORSHIP YOU GREAT BEING! That shit is way more nuts to me than an evolutionary cycle over millions of years.

Religion had its time and place and that was thousands of years ago. In a modern society we need to grasp there is no supernatural being making the sun rise, or making it rain, or healing our sickness, granting us food on the table, or having some master plan for our lives. Your life is not "Gods will" -- its your fucking own. Religion and the afterlife are just to make you not feel so insignificant. Yes, it is a complete mindfuck to think about what happens when you die and that you are very very insignificant... even if you make an impact on someone or society... so what -- you're dead!

But wait, the big pearly gates and streets of gold await! As I bow down at the thrown of jesus and dance with angels, or fuck 72 virgins, or....

Edit:
For the world to ever unify as "one" nation religion will have to not be present. Religion is holding back our progress of science and exploration of space. To ever get past our warring regional conflicts and looming apocalyptic World War, every country must unite in a global union. But the day will never come when muslims will be working with the west, or the jews, or whatever. And a bunch of other stupid shit.

No proof simply means there is no proof...it's neither negates nor affirms the existence of God. If there was proof one of us would be right and the other would be wrong, and faith wouldn't be the topic of discussion here. When you say "Fantastic miracles like the "big bang" are not proof of a higher power at work, only that we do not fully understand such scenarios at this point in time." You imply a faith in human advancements in science to the point where we'll fully understand something like the big bang. That's faith, dude, it's the same as someone believing God created the universe.

My point is that atheism, by definition, is the disbelief in the existence of God. If there is no proof, there is no scientifically proven evidence a God doesn't exist just as there is no evidence a God does exist. Therefore it requires some degree of faith to say there is no God. Therefore the scientific, faithless, answer to the question of is there a God is "I don't know."

[Keith P]

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

Therefore it requires some degree of faith to say there is no God. Therefore the scientific, faithless, answer to the question of is there a God is "I don't know."

I can tell you w/o a doubt the god of Abraham does not or ever did exist. The acts of such a god were fables and analogies. They have no historical or scientific basis. Therefore a dogmatism and belief system built around such a god is based in delusion. Any reasoning to support the existence of such a god is based on a number of logical fallacies and flies in the face of hundreds of years of accumulated knowledge.

The impersonal god people like Einstein made reference to or would use as metaphor we can't disprove of you're right. But what's the point in even troubling yourself with the existence of such an entity?

Agnostics are willing to entertain the existence of the judeo-christian-muslim god. We are not b/c the nature of such a god doesn't show itself in the natural world.

[Funkenstein]

Originally Posted by Keith P

By definition religion focuses on the worship of a god. It could never classify as a religion bc there is no supernatural being and no dogma.

Many of you are confusing religion with idealism or philosophy.

I assure you Keith that I am not. Take "x" (where x = money, power, God, lack of faith, women, et al, et al) and substitute it in this scenario. Some people chase different things and that becomes their focus or their attainable goal/drive.

The reason for their fervor is what THEY BELIEVE IN.

Not trying to set it up and be mean here, but if "Atheists" have got their own united stance and understanding on the topic of faith, then there should be no need for congregation at an appointed time every week/month/quarter or else you are just mimicking the structure that you claim to not agree with.

Just saying.

Originally Posted by Keith P

I can tell you w/o a doubt the god of Abraham does not or ever did exist. The acts of such a god were fables and analogies. They have no historical or scientific basis. Therefore a dogmatism and belief system built around such a god is based in delusion. Any reasoning to support the existence of such a god is based on a number of logical fallacies and flies in the face of hundreds of years of accumulated knowledge.

Okay, Keith. You are going to have to man up on your basis for the bolded stance. That is pretty bold, dude. I'm not offended, but I would like to know how you can state this without looking to be hit on 15 sides by religious folks like myself.

[Keith P]

Originally Posted by Sexual Chocolate

there should be no need for congregation at an appointed time every week/month/quarter or else you are just mimicking the structure that you claim to not agree with.

Actually I don't really disagree with the structure entirely. At times I certainly do but I think it can serve a good purpose. I still see a need for the sanctity of certain acts or ritual.

I think secular society really needs some sort of "fellowship" or congregation right now or at least some sort of rallying point. That might be attaining a voice in national debate. We certainly don't see that in faceless lawsuits.

Okay, Keith. You are going to have to man up on your basis for the bolded stance. That is pretty bold, dude. I'm not offended, but I would like to know how you can state this without looking to be hit on 15 sides by religious folks like myself.

Who said I wasn't?

I think I conveyed it throughout the rest of that retort. The conceived or literal nature of the Abrahamic god just isn't prevalent in the natural world.

What basis do you have to accept this god as opposed to another? What supporting evidence do you have to worship Yahweh and not Ahura Mazda?

Every god even pagan ones demanded fielty to a certain degree. That yahweh demands your allegiance "or else" means no more than Ra's judgement of evil after death.

Christianity declares itself as the one true faith. So what? Others did as well and long before hand. You're placing stock in what you've been raised with or surrounded with. It's the most immediate faith available to you. If you were born in Iran you'd be muslim and reject Christ as the son of god. If you were born in India you'd most likely be Hindu. If you were born in ancient japan you'd observe Shinto or some sect of Buddhism....

See what I'm saying? The debate over god in the west is ethnocentric and frankly arrogant. We forget a world of ideas surrounds us and long precedes our traditions. Even in science they've found that just b/c a theory is popular doesn't mean it's true.

Why deal in assumptions when you can place stock in what is known and observable?

[Funkenstein]

Originally Posted by Keith P

Actually I don't really disagree with the structure entirely. At times I certainly do but I think it can serve a good purpose. I still see a need for the sanctity of certain acts or ritual.

I understand that you can have "rituals" without being religious, but it just seems to be aping more than institutionalizing a new trend for "you guys" to subscribe to.

Originally Posted by Keith P

Who said I wasn't?

I think I conveyed it throughout the rest of that retort. The conceived or literal nature of the Abrahamic god just isn't prevalent in the natural world.

What basis do you have to accept this god as opposed to another? What supporting evidence do you have to worship Yahweh and not Ahura Mazda?

Every god even pagan ones demanded fielty to a certain degree. That yahweh demands your allegiance "or else" means no more than Ra's judgement of evil after death.

Christianity declares itself as the one true faith. So what? Others did as well and long before hand. You're placing stock in what you've been raised with or surrounded with. It's the most immediate faith available to you. If you were born in Iran you'd be muslim and reject Christ as the son of god. If you were born in India you'd most likely be Hindu. If you were born in ancient japan you'd observe Shinto or some sect of Buddhism....

See what I'm saying? The debate over god in the west is ethnocentric and frankly arrogant. We forget a world of ideas surrounds us and long precedes our traditions. Even in science they've found that just b/c a theory is popular doesn't mean it's true.

Why deal in assumptions when you can place stock in what is known and observable?

I understand what you say with this second part, but do note that I have not let my religion control ALL my life (regarding pre-marital sex, tithing, and my outlook on OTHER religions). I don't think you have to divorce religion or the concept of God entirely to be as free in thought as you are. I'm not saying that your explanation is devoid of reason, just that the reasoning given is not what I can get behind or support.

The bolded is what you and I have taken to task with one another all throughout most of the religious talks on and outside of here.

I think that it is possible to accept science and believe in God at the same time. It can create massive conundrum if you don't know how to balance it all, but hasn't killed me yet and keeps the scales tipped to interesting at all times.

Why?

If I'm wrong, I'm just dead. If you're wrong, you've died and you don't get a second shot (from the rules I understand on this plane).

[Damnsammit]

Originally Posted by Sexual Chocolate

If I'm wrong, I'm just dead. If you're wrong, you've died and you don't get a second shot (from the rules I understand on this plane).

You shouldn't question your faith, Brian.

God is frowning upon you from his box seat in the sky.

Atheists - 14
Theists - 10

Better play harder if you want to please your God.