Obama declares June 2009 LGBT pride month

[PETA]

Originally Posted by NoKegger4U

hey xian, come to the rave next week! it's right after you get off work and is just at the downtown marriot.

free food, free parking, and i'm be playin' some jams.

you could swing by for an hour and skip the rush hour traffic.

yeah.... would love to but got a short term project that I start tomorrow morning at 7am.... woking 7am to midnight until next Friday... so I'll be missing rush hour for sure

drop me a note w/the info though... I might be able to duck out for a bit

[LucyCiel]

Originally Posted by St. Stalin the Apathetic

Look... your assertion is, in essence, that you are denied the right to marry the person of your choice. No such right exists for anyone. The state has the authority to restrict the class of people whom we may marry. Most of us may choose within a very broad class but it is not without restriction. Age, cosanguinity and gender are current restrictions.

I have no problem adhering to all the requirements other than gender. I'm not trying to go all crazy marrying my sister or some high school chick. I don't think asking to marry the consenting adult non relative person of my choice something that should be so out of the question.

Originally Posted by St. Stalin the Apathetic

You don't like the last one... I'm on board with you that it shouldn't be there. That doesn't mean your argument is sound.

If all of our arguments are so flimsy, lawman, then get on the boat and post an argument that you think is sound IN FAVOR of gay marriage.

Originally Posted by St. Stalin the Apathetic

Anti-miscegination laws said a white man couldn't marry a black woman - see Loving v VA. Even those laws never contemplated the notion that people of the same sex would be permitted to wed. Its not a very good analogy unless you're trying to call me a racist... are you calling me a racist?

It is a perfectly relevant analogy. And no, I am not calling you racist! lol Simply using the most recent example of discrimination regarding marriage.

Originally Posted by St. Stalin the Apathetic

Like I said, I'm on board with making the change but I think the "you're denying me my rights" argument is not only unsound but will be harmful in the hearts and minds part of the effort required to get enouigh votes to change laws to get you what you should have.

How is the denial of rights an argument that is not sound? Again, give me your opinion of a sound argument, you are more versed in the law than I am. Also, please elaborate on how this argument is harmful.

[Sinner]

But see, Stalin IIIISSSS a racist.

[LucyCiel]

Originally Posted by St. Stalin the Apathetic

Black and Gay are not the same thing

Minority groups being discriminated against. That's where the comparison comes in.

[LucyCiel]

Originally Posted by NoKegger4U

But see, Stalin IIIISSSS a racist.

And a dirty breeder lmao... that post cracked me up

[Sinner]

Originally Posted by LucyCiel

Minority groups being discriminated against. That's where the comparison comes in.

his point is that some minority groups are protected classes, and homos are NOT one.

age
race
religion
disabled

those are a few of the protected classes...

If I say "that blackie can't buy a house here", that's wrong because blackies are protected.
But I can say "that homo can't buy a house here" because a homo isn't protected.



Looking at it from that way, I'd almost think that saying my sex is more legally discriminated against in regards to getting married more-so than sexual orientation.

Considering that sexual orientation is not a protected class.

[LucyCiel]

Originally Posted by NoKegger4U

Considering that sexual orientation is not a protected class.

We are a partially protected class group depending upon the law, the state, etc. Just one for instance, Dallas has fair housing laws in place.

There are discrepancies ALL OVER the laws when it comes to the gays. That's probably what has his lawyer panties in a twist. He can't stand to see all the grey area when it should look black and white. I can see how that would be irritating as hell for someone who knows so much about the law.

[PETA]

Originally Posted by LucyCiel

I have no problem adhering to all the requirements other than gender. I'm not trying to go all crazy marrying my sister or some high school chick. I don't think asking to marry the consenting adult non relative person of my choice something that should be so out of the question.

I don't either. But that doesn't mean that its currently not legal in most places nor does it mean that the law as it stands is unconstitutional... it means that it is wrong.

Originally Posted by LucyCiel

If all of our arguments are so flimsy, lawman, then get on the boat and post an argument that you think is sound IN FAVOR of gay marriage.

I have. Many times.

Short version... every basis for state sanction of marriage is equally applicable to same sex couples... to wit... they can have children just like hetero couples even if it isn't a "natural product" (hate that phrase) of the marriage. So there

Originally Posted by LucyCiel

It is a perfectly relevant analogy. And no, I am not calling you racist! lol Simply using the most recent example of discrimination regarding marriage.

might be relevant but it isn't analogous... the things you are comparing are not equal. And I didn't think you were calling me racist was just tossing back a joke.

Originally Posted by LucyCiel

How is the denial of rights an argument that is not sound?

First, because it is an assertion not an argument. Second, no right has been denied.

Originally Posted by LucyCiel

Also, please elaborate on how this argument is harmful.

I've elaborated at length why I think the equal protection argument is a bad thing... it weakens the rule of law and strengthens rule by judicial whim. It means that the law is as strong as the current make up of the bench... whether it is for ya, or again' ya. The law should not swing on a pendulum weighted to the most recent judicial appointment.

Originally Posted by LucyCiel

Minority groups being discriminated against. That's where the comparison comes in.

Not all minority groups are deemed to be equal. Left handed midgets are a minority group, do they need special protections? We could make them a protected class if we deem it necessary. We could make homosexuality as protected class if we wish to do so. It should be done by ballot/legislature not judicial fiat for reasons given above.

Originally Posted by LucyCiel

We are a partially protected class group depending upon the law, the state, etc. Just one for instance, Dallas has fair housing laws in place.

There are discrepancies ALL OVER the laws when it comes to the gays. That's probably what has his lawyer panties in a twist. He can't stand to see all the grey area when it should look black and white. I can see how that would be irritating as hell for someone who knows so much about the law.

the problem is that I see gray all over... you two see black and white...

for you its is as simple as... it is discriminatory to your detriment therefore it must changed. It ain't that easy from my perspective - how it is changed matters... a lot.

.... and there's a special place in hell for flatterers no matter I always bite when its applied.

[LucyCiel]

Originally Posted by St. Stalin the Apathetic

...

You win? lol idk...

I am so tired of having this battle. Not with you, that's not what I mean. You challenge me and I like that most of the time. But I have been to protests, rallys, argued this all over the place, donated, signed up for action committees and email lists, etc. It is becoming exhausting. I am pretty sure Texas isn't heading the direction I want it to any time soon. Even if I could legally marry my girlfriend here, there are plenty of people here that would still want to kick me out of places, give me shitty looks, make nasty remarks, fire me from jobs, deny me services/goods, treat me like dirt, tailgate me and otherwise fuck with me on the road, prevent me from advancing my career, try to prevent me from obtaining housing, etc. And the scariest part, there are people out there who would literally rape me to "teach me a lesson" and there are plenty of cops that find out I'm a lesbian and immediately treat me like shit. Just because I like girls! lol It is so stupid! I have been kicked out of stores, restaurants, bars, clubs and bathrooms just for the relationship I'm in.

So I don't care how you break it down, I don't care what the law said before, what it says now, or how technical you want to get about my "rights". I want it changed.
I am being discriminated against when it comes to marriage. No matter how you say it.

That said, if you want to come draw up all the paperwork it would take to have my partnership be equal to that of a hetero married couple for free when I decide to make a permanent commitment to someone, I say come on. Because that is the only likelihood for my lifetime if I want to live in Texas.
I will keep pushing, I will keep fighting, and hopefully with enough support, we can make more progress. Political, legal, social and cultural progress.

[PETA]

Originally Posted by LucyCiel

You win? lol idk...

I am so tired of having this battle. Not with you, that's not what I mean. You challenge me and I like that most of the time. But I have been to protests, rallys, argued this all over the place, donated, signed up for action committees and email lists, etc. It is becoming exhausting. I am pretty sure Texas isn't heading the direction I want it to any time soon. Even if I could legally marry my girlfriend here, there are plenty of people here that would still want to kick me out of places, give me shitty looks, make nasty remarks, fire me from jobs, deny me services/goods, treat me like dirt, tailgate me and otherwise fuck with me on the road, prevent me from advancing my career, try to prevent me from obtaining housing, etc. And the scariest part, there are people out there who would literally rape me to "teach me a lesson" and there are plenty of cops that find out I'm a lesbian and immediately treat me like shit. Just because I like girls! lol It is so stupid! I have been kicked out of stores, restaurants, bars, clubs and bathrooms just for the relationship I'm in.

So I don't care how you break it down, I don't care what the law said before, what it says now, or how technical you want to get about my "rights". I want it changed.
I am being discriminated against when it comes to marriage. No matter how you say it.

That said, if you want to come draw up all the paperwork it would take to have my partnership be equal to that of a hetero married couple for free when I decide to make a permanent commitment to someone, I say come on. Because that is the only likelihood for my lifetime if I want to live in Texas.
I will keep pushing, I will keep fighting, and hopefully with enough support, we can make more progress. Political, legal, social and cultural progress.

I'm sure it is exhuasting and the behavior you described is, of course, inexcuseable.

Yes, you are being discriminated against. I think said as much explicitly in one response to you (may have been to PJ or Micah though). Problem for you is that it is legal discrimination.

Lastly, you're probably right about Texas. At least for now. That's one of the features of federalism.. local rules apply. Which means you have the option of going elsewhere to get married and live as a married couple. Question is, do you wantr to be in Texas more than you want to be married? Not a fair question to be confronted with but its not fair that I can't start at center for the Lakers either.

[tricky]

Originally Posted by St. Stalin the Apathetic

I'm sure it is exhuasting and the behavior you described is, of course, inexcuseable.

Yes, you are being discriminated against. I think said as much explicitly in one response to you (may have been to PJ or Micah though). Problem for you is that it is legal discrimination.

Lastly, you're probably right about Texas. At least for now. That's one of the features of federalism.. local rules apply. Which means you have the option of going elsewhere to get married and live as a married couple. Question is, do you wantr to be in Texas more than you want to be married? Not a fair question to be confronted with but its not fair that I can't start at center for the Lakers either.

Thank you for reducing this complex subject into something so black and white.

Kudos

[PETA]

Originally Posted by tricky

Thank you for reducing this complex subject into something so black and white.

Kudos

No. Thank you for seizing on one intentionally silly comment in 11 pages of serious discussion to comment on.

[MattM]

For such a small percentage of the population who is gay, you sure do hear a lot about this issue.

[PETA]

Originally Posted by MattM

For such a small percentage of the population who is gay, you sure do hear a lot about this issue.

Which was part and parcel to the concern/warning I was giving about relying on the particular whim of judges in order to effect this change... if history teaches us anything it is that minorities are easily fucked over. Even more so when we erode the rule of law and depend on individual judges' backgrounds and perspectives... rather than the law.

[-m-]

If gays are so insignificant and unimportant, then why does anyone even care if the law is changed to allow them to marry? I mean we're talking what, like maybe a thousand people in San Francisco and one dude in Iowa versus the millions of other citizens of this country who are all Christian?