Iranian election fun

[zerojunkie]

Originally Posted by joel

if all they want is to have Mousavi over Ahmadinejad then that'll be a pretty pathetic revolution... but at least they are fighting against the theocracy either way.

They seem conflicted on this. I think there's a contingent of protesters who will settle for nothing less than the complete dismantling of the government there. However there seems to be another group who's reaffirming some of the core values of the revolution (the one in 1979) and are looking for change from within rather than the complete disintegration of the theocracy. I read an article to the same effect that articulated the point much better than I have. Either way, an Iran that doesn't have Ahmadinejad as it's president is a much better neighbor in all respects.

[name change request]

if you have a link to that article i'd love to read it

because all i've seen is calls for Mousavi over Ahmadinejad... and Mousavi isn't that much better.

[zerojunkie]

Originally Posted by joel

if you have a link to that article i'd love to read it

because all i've seen is calls for Mousavi over Ahmadinejad... and Mousavi isn't that much better.

Yeah, he's not that much better in the sense of what we'd like to see Iran become. But in the hopes of improving international relations and nuclear weapons proliferation, he'd probably be a great deal better. Here's that article.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.co...ting-1979.html

[BradH]

I think all of these American Twitter supporters don't realize Mousavi still wants Israel destroyed, still hates America, and all the usual Iranian mumbo jumbo.

The Iranians themselves voted for Mousavi because Ahmadinejad didn't live up to his election promises the first time around. Disregarded the lower class, increased inflation, ruined their economy, etc etc.

[zymote]

Originally Posted by St. Stalin the Apathetic

which one's are we not the leader in?

Heathcare stats:

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-healthcare.htm

And on the quality of life thing, unless you're wealthy or upper middle class, the quality of life in Western/Northern Europe is definitely higher. I've spent quite a bit of time on both sides of the pond, and while I live in the US by choice, the average person does live quite a bit better over there.

And education? C'mon.

[zerojunkie]

Originally Posted by BradH

I think all of these American Twitter supporters don't realize Mousavi still wants Israel destroyed, still hates America, and all the usual Iranian mumbo jumbo.

Not saying he's expressed love for either one, but I wouldn't say I've seen anything saying he hates America and Israel. He's stated he wants to improve Iran's international relations, and hating either Israel or America doesn't do much to achieve that goal.

[BradH]

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

Not saying he's expressed love for either one, but I wouldn't say I've seen anything saying he hates America and Israel. He's stated he wants to improve Iran's international relations, and hating either Israel or America doesn't do much to achieve that goal.

Mousavi:
While in office, he severed ties with Great Britain over the U.K.'s refusal to disavow Salman Rushdie, the British author whose The Satanic Verses spurred Ayatollah Khomeini to declare a fatwa calling for Rushdie's death

Was placed on the leadership council of Lebanon's Shi'ite militant group Hizballah by Ayatollah Khomeini when the group was founded in 1982. Mousavi does not recognize Israel, though he has condemned the Holocaust

Defended the seizure of 52 American hostages at the U.S. embassy in 1979. The hostages were held for more than 400 days; the two countries have not had normalized relations since

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...904194,00.html

[tricky]

Originally Posted by zymote

Heathcare stats:

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-healthcare.htm

And on the quality of life thing, unless you're wealthy or upper middle class, the quality of life in Western/Northern Europe is definitely higher. I've spent quite a bit of time on both sides of the pond, and while I live in the US by choice, the average person does live quite a bit better over there.

And education? C'mon.

it will be a cold day in hell before Xian accepts any of those statistics. Lol. Good luck with all that...been there

[zerojunkie]

Originally Posted by BradH

Mousavi:
While in office, he severed ties with Great Britain over the U.K.'s refusal to disavow Salman Rushdie, the British author whose The Satanic Verses spurred Ayatollah Khomeini to declare a fatwa calling for Rushdie's death

Was placed on the leadership council of Lebanon's Shi'ite militant group Hizballah by Ayatollah Khomeini when the group was founded in 1982. Mousavi does not recognize Israel, though he has condemned the Holocaust

Defended the seizure of 52 American hostages at the U.S. embassy in 1979. The hostages were held for more than 400 days; the two countries have not had normalized relations since

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...904194,00.html

Most of that was nearly 30 years ago. He's been out of the Iranian public's eye for nearly 20 years. Given his campaign promises regarding foreign relations and Khamenei's response toward him. I think it's possible to at least entertain the thought that he's not as much of a hard liner as he used to be. That's relative of course, he's still a hard liner by most western standards. The question is would you rather have he or Ahmadinejad in power?

[matias pecile]

my question is - does any of this really even matter considering the ayatollah calls all the shots?

[xtramedium]

Originally Posted by BradH

both candidates hate america. does it really matter who wins?

The Ayatollah has supreme power so it doesn't matter who is the president.... the pres is just a figurehead. I don't even know why they bother having "elections" when they will just put who they want in that spot. It's dictatorship and those people have no rights.

[zerojunkie]

Originally Posted by matias pecile

my question is - does any of this really even matter considering the ayatollah calls all the shots?

Originally Posted by xtramedium

The Ayatollah has supreme power so it doesn't matter who is the president.... the pres is just a figurehead. I don't even know why they bother having "elections" when they will just put who they want in that spot. It's dictatorship and those people have no rights.

The Ayatollah doesn't have supreme power. At least not in the strictest sense. There is the Assembly of Experts who are responsible for electing, removing, and supervising the Supreme Leader of Iran. Think board of directors with the supreme leader being the chairman, and the president as being the CEO.

[name change request]

Originally Posted by matias pecile

my question is - does any of this really even matter considering the ayatollah calls all the shots?

it does matter. it's not as simple as saying that the Ayatollah and Supreme Council call all the shots and the President does nothing but sit there.

but hopefully the factions in this revolution that want to overthrow Khomeini will win... because that would be badass.

[PETA]

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

Compulsory education, health care, and "general standard of living" are the ones that immediately come to mind.

kinda of a hijacking (of my making) I guess but periodically we go down this road... so if we don't lead in those catagories who does? Just so we can look at side be side comparisons. Just for the record... statistics on this stuff often fail to represent a valid side by siude comparison. For example, many love to cite live child births and claim Cuba's got a better rate. When you dive into the stats we find that if a direct comparison is used rather than simply relyuing on Cuba's reported rate it is no longer true. (Cuba is extremely generous with itself in compiling its statistics)

Oh, agreed on compulsory education but on non compulsory (meaning private k-12 and university) you're gonna have a hard time denying our position as the best in the world. So, it comes down to how you decide to do your rankings... do you compare our worst to others best or our best to others best.

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

I will cede that Rumsfield had a great deal to do with the shift in military thinking that put more of an emphasis on covert ops. Lets be real though, the speed in which we reached Baghdad was more because Saddam's army wouldn't engage US forces in a stand up fight than any sort of brilliance on the part of the administration.

You're addressing a "why" when he was simply stating a "what."

Originally Posted by zymote

Heathcare stats:

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-healthcare.htm

And on the quality of life thing, unless you're wealthy or upper middle class, the quality of life in Western/Northern Europe is definitely higher. I've spent quite a bit of time on both sides of the pond, and while I live in the US by choice, the average person does live quite a bit better over there.

And education? C'mon.

again... you're comparing our lowest to their best...

education... the world sends its best and brightest to our universities. They send their sickest to our best hospitals etc etc. But you're right - money matters in the equation.

[xtramedium]

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

The Ayatollah doesn't have supreme power. At least not in the strictest sense. There is the Assembly of Experts who are responsible for electing, removing, and supervising the Supreme Leader of Iran. Think board of directors with the supreme leader being the chairman, and the president as being the CEO.

Well the Ayatollah is unimpeachable and unelectable. That "Assembly of Experts" you speak of is a board of clerics who make the decisions together. The Ayatollah is the "top dog" of that board of idiots *cough cough* I mean clerics. So yes, he is the ultimate decision maker.