parable about the current health care debate using our own history - Dallas Dance Music - Dallas nightlife, music, tickets, and more

e-brake · 07-29-09, 12:04 PM

In the 19th century, Philadelphia didn't have a fire department; it had lots of competing private fire departments. Ben Franklin had set up the system some decades before, and had encouraged the formation of competing firefighter brigades on the grounds that it would promote more vigilant and more widespread coverage of the city.

Fast forward to about 1840, and the system is now a gigantic freaking mess. Fire departments were now affiliated with fire insurance companies, and, increasingly, with political parties and political machines. They'd sabotage each other's equipment. Sometimes rival companies even exchanged musket fire. Two companies on the scene of a fire would literally stand there and argue over whose fire it was while the building burned down. If your house was on fire but you didn't have the mark on your door that indicated you were fully paid up with your insurance company(*), they would stand by and watch it burn. They'd pay kids to slap a barrel over a fire hydrant and sit on it, so as to deny use of the hydrant to another company.

This is exactly what Americans face with healthcare insurance companies today. The only solution to the fire department problem in early america was to eliminate all the private fire departments that were funded by insurance companies and politicians that were only accountable to shareholders and private owners. They replaced them all with one fire department, funded by everybody and accountable to everybody. The solution worked so well that it became the norm world wide.

Nyteshade · 07-29-09, 12:16 PM

I don't see doctors sabotaging other doctor's equipment.
I don't see doctors arguing over who's patient it is while someone dies.
I don't see doctors letting people die because the insurance premium isn't paid up yet.

I fail to see how this applies at all.

Ash · 07-29-09, 12:24 PM

not a good analogy

e-brake · 07-29-09, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nyteshade

I don't see doctors sabotaging other doctor's equipment.
I don't see doctors arguing over who's patient it is while someone dies.
I don't see doctors letting people die because the insurance premium isn't paid up yet.

I fail to see how this applies at all.

Its the insurance companies. We have insurance companies today denying care to people that results in death and dismemberment.

We also have people that have no insurance that are left to die as a result. Does it not bother you at all to live in a nation where a child with Lukemia will be allowed to die simply because his family does not have the money to pay for Chemo?

Does it not bother you to know that someone who has been in a car accident can have limbs removed simply because he does not have insurance to pay for reconstruction surgery.

The fact is in America today we are allowing people to die from treatable illness when all of the resources are in place to treat them......they die because of a lack of funds. When we have children dying in hospitals because the insurance company refused to pay for medication or treatment that could have saved that kids life....it is no different than a fire department standing by watching someones house burn to the ground because they didnt pay for enough fire insurance.

Nyteshade · 07-29-09, 01:36 PM

Now, how many people are really allowed to die from preventable illnesses due to no insurance? Let's not go the Michael Moore route and link 3 individual stories of it happening. I'm talking about on a national level.

The reason I make the Michael Moore analogy is because every time I ask a question like this, someone links a news story about how John Doe died and how it could have been prevented. That's the tactics he uses, link a couple of extreme cases to make it appear to be the norm and ignore everything in between.

edit: And yes, I agree that changes to our health care industry need to happen but the way it's being done is not going to help at all.

The Nudist Buddhist · 07-29-09, 01:55 PM

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/may2002/ins-m25.shtml

More than 18,000 Americans die every year solely because they cannot afford private health care insurance. This is the finding of a new study entitled “Care without coverage: Too little, too late,” which compares the health of insured and uninsured adults in the US, where 30 million—or one out of every seven—working-age people lack health care coverage.

The study, conducted by the Institute of Medicine (IOM), a private organization affiliated with the National Academy of Sciences, paints a chilling picture of the consequences of America’s for-profit health care system. More than 40 million people, including nearly 10 million children, have no health insurance, and the number continues to grow at a pace of about 1 million each year.

Those without health insurance are more likely to have poorer health and die prematurely than those with insurance, the study found. Uninsured adults received fewer diagnostic and treatment services after traumatic injuries or heart attack, resulting in an increased risk of death even when in the hospital. People without insurance also more often go without cancer screening tests, delaying diagnosis and leading to premature death, the study concluded.

Those without insurance also do not receive care recommended for chronic diseases, like regular eye and foot exams to prevent blindness and amputation in persons with diabetes, and lack regular access to medications to manage conditions such as hypertension or HIV infection.

All told, the IOM study found, 18,314 people die each year because they lack preventative services, a timely diagnosis or appropriate care. This includes about 1,400 people with high blood pressure, 400 to 600 with breast cancer and 1,500 diagnosed with HIV. Odds are the number of deaths is even higher.

“Because we don’t see many people dying in the streets in this country, we assume that the uninsured manage to get the care they need, but the evidence refutes that assumption,” said Mary Sue Coleman, co-chair of the committee that wrote the report, and president of the Iowa Health System and University of Iowa, Iowa City. “The fact is that the quality and length of life are distinctly different for insured and uninsured populations,” she said.

The uninsured are disproportionately lower income workers whose employers do not provide medical insurance. At the same time they do not qualify for Medicaid, the federal health care program for the poor. Adults on Medicaid tend to be in even worse health than those with no insurance at all.

According to the IOM study, 39 percent of those making $20,000 or less are uninsured, while another 20 percent had their coverage interrupted at some point over the course of the last two years. The lack of health care is also an acute problem for those earning more. Fourteen percent of those making between $20,001 and $35,000 are uninsured, while another 17 percent had a recent gap in coverage. Among those making between $35,000 and $60,000, 4 percent were uninsured and another 9 percent went without coverage some time over the last two years.

Studies monitoring the health of people who had no insurance or temporarily lost it for a period of one to four years show that a person’s overall well-being suffers during the time they lack coverage. The decline in health caused by a lack or loss of coverage is most profound for adults between 55 and 65 years old, the report says. Symptoms of worsening health might include high blood pressure, greater difficulty climbing stairs or walking, or a decline in general self-perceived wellness.

e-brake · 07-29-09, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nyteshade

Now, how many people are really allowed to die from preventable illnesses due to no insurance? Let's not go the Michael Moore route and link 3 individual stories of it happening. I'm talking about on a national level.

The reason I make the Michael Moore analogy is because every time I ask a question like this, someone links a news story about how John Doe died and how it could have been prevented. That's the tactics he uses, link a couple of extreme cases to make it appear to be the norm and ignore everything in between.

edit: And yes, I agree that changes to our health care industry need to happen but the way it's being done is not going to help at all.

Free market healthcare is about letting people die from treatable illness if they are unable to pay for treatment.

According to our own government statistics at least 20,000 Americans DIE every year from a treatable illness because they were unable to see a doctor or afford available treatments. That doesn't even take into account the number of Americans that loose limbs, eyes, teeth, organs, are refused rehab, medications, or other BASIC needs.

When you throw in the number of Cancer patients that HAVE insurance, that denies payment for effective proven treatments you can rack up an additional 1,000 deaths per day as a direct result of our free market healthcare system. These same people would have received treatment and many of them would have lived if they were in Canada, or virtually any country in Europe.

There is an interesting interview with Dr. Drew Altman from the Kaiser family foundation up at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...ws/altman.html its interesting reading about why we continue to do things the same way despite a mountain of evidence showing that its reducing our own life expectancy as well as the life expectancy of our children.

Nyteshade · 07-29-09, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Nudist Buddhist

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/may2002/ins-m25.shtml

Exactly what I was looking for.

e-brake · 07-29-09, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nyteshade

edit: And yes, I agree that changes to our health care industry need to happen but the way it's being done is not going to help at all.

I agree completely, from my facebook earlier this week: Why are all the politicians talking about insurance, I dont want insurance I want HEALTH CARE.

I don't want insurance, I just want to:
a) not die from a treatable illness/injury
b) not go into permanent debt just because I have the audacity to want a)

PETA · 07-29-09, 02:08 PM

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