Immigration

[zerojunkie]

Originally Posted by PETA

I believe there are fairly decent quantitative studies showing the economic cost impact illegal immigrants cause weighted against benefits given. We're in the red big time.

I would disagree. The CBO report done on it indicated that the difference in spending vs income created a moderate, at worst, burden on the state. The ambiguity becomes a factor when estimating how many undocumented immigrants pay taxes. The figures range anywhere from 50 to 25 percent who don't pay taxes most often because of a direct result of their illegal status. What fucking sense does that make? If they're going to come here anyways you might as well have a process that documents them so they can pay taxes. There have even been some reports indicating undocumented immigrants actually increase the public coffers. Well the ones that pay taxes anyways.

Originally Posted by PETA

I agree that quotas are too low if people risk life and limb to come here but they don't really risk life and limb. While true some do, the overwhelming majority get here much more easuily and safely.

Sure "only" 3000 have died in a 10 year period on the US side of the border trying to make it over. I wonder how many Indians died on the way over with their H1B visas? Not to mention the trip from their indigenous countries are fraught with danger as well. If you can find it, there's a pretty good documentary on the trip through Mexico to the US called Chasing El Norte. Only 50% of the immigrants come from Mexico; the rest have to contend with gangs and various other nefarious elements just to get to the border and attempt crossing the desert on the US side.

Originally Posted by PETA

lastly, as I said in another thread, other waves of immigrants from everywhere else came across oceans and assimilated within three generations. Mexican immigration presents a unique challenge in that it's next door. The second generation tends to assimilate... a bit... and elevate its income level but it caps at the third (speaking in gross generalities but they are gnerally true) and they tend to maintain more segregated communities longer generationally. (Chinatowns in NYC and SF would be notable exceptions)

Would you be interested in assimilating into a culture that expended so many resources in the effort of keeping you out for virtually no reason at all?

[PETA]

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

If they're going to come here anyways you might as well have a process that documents them so they can pay taxes.

I don't have a quarrel with that. I do have a quarrel with the proposition that we benefit greatly from their illegal presence. (not suggesting you were arguing that)

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

There have even been some reports indicating undocumented immigrants actually increase the public coffers. Well the ones that pay taxes anyways.

Sure, and I don't buy it. This study is quantitative, loaded with a shit ton of verifiabnle footnotes and government data. We're in the red w/regard to illegals. Low-skilled immigrants fall into that ever growing catagory of people with zero income tax liability. Now, they do pay excise taxes but big whoop.

full article: http://www.heritage.org/research/Immigration/sr14.cfm
executive summary: http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/sr14es.cfm

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

Sure "only" 3000 have died in a 10 year period on the US side of the border trying to make it over. I wonder how many Indians died on the way over with their H1B visas? Not to mention the trip from their indigenous countries are fraught with danger as well. If you can find it, there's a pretty good documentary on the trip through Mexico to the US called Chasing El Norte. Only 50% of the immigrants come from Mexico; the rest have to contend with gangs and various other nefarious elements just to get to the border and attempt crossing the desert on the US side.

Only 50%? That's half pal. By anyone's estimation that's a shit ton. lol.

Regardless, think immigrants that went through Ellis Island had a cake walk? Its really a non-issue. The difficulty or ease of getting here doesn't prove much. We're the wealthiest society the world has ever seen. That's why people come here looking to improve their lot in life. Not much of a mystery.

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

Would you be interested in assimilating into a culture that expended so many resources in the effort of keeping you out for virtually no reason at all?

No reason? Border enforcement is one of the primary duties of a government. What do you think the Mexicans do at their southern border? Do they do it for no reason? Maybe you ought to call them up and tell them they're shooting at Guatamalans for no good reason. I'm sure they'll scratch their heads and say, "gee, you're rihgt"

Illegals don't do jobs that Americans won't do. They do jobs that Americans won't do at that price. If the illegal labor market were whisked away with a wave of a wand so would the depressed labor market their presence creates. That's a pretty good reason to want to prevent them from crossing our borders illegally (and that doesn't even touch on the huge problem with cross-border crime/narco trafficking etc)

[FarangBa]

Originally Posted by jaesun

"They took our jobs"

HaHa... I love that chit right there!

But for realz, don't get me wrong on this. I'm not one of those bitching about immigrants taking American jobs. I will bitch about ILLEGALS taking American Jobs. That's because paying ILLEGALS less than minimum wage + no benefits, etc is fuggin' WRONG.. & it pisses me off when people try to say that conservatives are the ones who don't care about other people. It's an absolute LIE. Those who don't want enforcement of our borders and want to just leave the ILLEGALS be... are actually the one's who don't give a shit about them.

I'm all about Americans getting up off their lazy Union or Gov't asses, learning something new and letting the LEGAL immigrants have the minimum wage jobs.

[Adam D]

Originally Posted by FarangBa

HaHa... I love that chit right there!

But for realz, don't get me wrong on this. I'm not one of those bitching about immigrants taking American jobs. I will bitch about ILLEGALS taking American Jobs. That's because paying ILLEGALS less than minimum wage + no benefits, etc is fuggin' WRONG.. & it pisses me off when people try to say that conservatives are the ones who don't care about other people. It's an absolute LIE. Those who don't want enforcement of our borders and want to just leave the ILLEGALS be... are actually the one's who don't give a shit about them.

I'm all about Americans getting up off their lazy Union or Gov't asses, learning something new and letting the LEGAL immigrants have the minimum wage jobs.

But lowering costs (cheap labor) is the heart and soul of modern capitalism. What, do you want the government to step in and regulate MORE? What kind of commie are you?

[PETA]

Originally Posted by Adam D

But lowering costs (cheap labor) is the heart and soul of modern capitalism. What, do you want the government to step in and regulate MORE? What kind of commie are you?

Just who the hell are you

<--- xian

Capitalism is nowhere free of regulation. It needs regulation when circumstances artificially make the playing field uneven. Illegal labor artificially lowers labor costs and therefore cheats legitimate labor out of the reward it would otherwise earn and cheats other industries unable to take advantage of that artifically depressed labor market. It ain't fair.

[Adam D]

Originally Posted by PETA

Just who the hell are you

<--- xian

I figured as much.

Capitalism is nowhere free of regulation. It needs regulation when circumstances artificially make the playing field uneven.

In other words, all the time.

[PETA]

Originally Posted by Adam D

I figured as much.



In other words, all the time.

sure commie

[zerojunkie]

Originally Posted by PETA

Sure, and I don't buy it. This study is quantitative, loaded with a shit ton of verifiabnle footnotes and government data. We're in the red w/regard to illegals. Low-skilled immigrants fall into that ever growing catagory of people with zero income tax liability. Now, they do pay excise taxes but big whoop.

full article: http://www.heritage.org/research/Immigration/sr14.cfm
executive summary: http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/sr14es.cfm

too long; didn't read. I'll take your word for it, but I'll stop short of saying it's going to be the end of our economy. You can't factor in some of the less immediately tangible benefits of relaxed immigration. I saw a story recently on a cancer researcher who came here initially as an illegal immigrant, doing day labor, and now he's one of the preeminent researchers in the field right now. Now obviously not all undocumented workers are going to become oncologists, but it's just an example of some of the benefits of relaxed immigration policy that can't be included in some report.

Originally Posted by PETA

Only 50%? That's half pal. By anyone's estimation that's a shit ton. lol.

Regardless, think immigrants that went through Ellis Island had a cake walk? Its really a non-issue. The difficulty or ease of getting here doesn't prove much. We're the wealthiest society the world has ever seen. That's why people come here looking to improve their lot in life. Not much of a mystery.

lol, well then the other shit ton of people have to go through Mexico and are subject to the perils I listed above. Not to mention the ones from southern and central Mexico are in the same boat. I don't think Ellis Island is a fare comparison. It's the 21st century, there's no reason 3000 people have to die getting over here.

Originally Posted by PETA

No reason? Border enforcement is one of the primary duties of a government. What do you think the Mexicans do at their southern border? Do they do it for no reason? Maybe you ought to call them up and tell them they're shooting at Guatamalans for no good reason. I'm sure they'll scratch their heads and say, "gee, you're rihgt"

Again, I'm not saying we just dissolve our borders. I'm just hoping we approach it a little more intelligently.

Originally Posted by PETA

Illegals don't do jobs that Americans won't do. They do jobs that Americans won't do at that price. If the illegal labor market were whisked away with a wave of a wand so would the depressed labor market their presence creates.

Depressed relative to what? You remove the illegal labor and you could just as easily argue the market was artificially inflated because you're paying an American three times as much to do the same farking thing the Guatemalan was doing simply because they were born here. It's globalization, and it's been happening in other industries for decades now. Either in the form of shipping a service to be done overseas or shipping people from overseas here. You learn to cope with it by picking up better and more unique skills. Not by crying like a little bitch to the government about them tekken our jerbs. <rant off>

Originally Posted by PETA

(and that doesn't even touch on the huge problem with cross-border crime/narco trafficking etc)

Nearly all of which stems from narco trafficking...but that's another debate.

[PETA]

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

...I'll stop short of saying it's going to be the end of our economy.

I never asserted that. I said that on whole the impact was negative.

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

You can't factor in some of the less immediately tangible benefits of relaxed immigration. I saw a story recently on a cancer researcher who came here initially as an illegal immigrant, doing day labor, and now he's one of the preeminent researchers in the field right now. Now obviously not all undocumented workers are going to become oncologists, but it's just an example of some of the benefits of relaxed immigration policy that can't be included in some report.

That's a wonderful anecdotal example and about as unrepresentative of the issue as you can get. It proves nothing.

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

lol, well then the other shit ton of people have to go through Mexico and are subject to the perils I listed above. Not to mention the ones from southern and central Mexico are in the same boat. I don't think Ellis Island is a fare comparison. It's the 21st century, there's no reason 3000 people have to die getting over here.

Well, there is. Mexicans shoot at people coming over their border. I'm not doubting the perils some face. I'm saying that it is not a hidden fact to these people. Further, the US isn't the government creating the peril. The Mexican government and human smugglers etc are. It sucks and it isn't fair but the risk is assumed once they embark upon their enterprise.

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

Again, I'm not saying we just dissolve our borders. I'm just hoping we approach it a little more intelligently.

What does that mean?

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

Depressed relative to what? You remove the illegal labor and you could just as easily argue the market was artificially inflated because you're paying an American three times as much to do the same farking thing the Guatemalan was doing simply because they were born here. It's globalization, and it's been happening in other industries for decades now. Either in the form of shipping a service to be done overseas or shipping people from overseas here. You learn to cope with it by picking up better and more unique skills. Not by crying like a little bitch to the government about them tekken our jerbs. <rant off>

Illegal labor creates an unfair advantage for employers using it over those who cannot or do not. Illegal labor cheatsd legal labor out of the higher wage they would otherwise command. It is no argument to say it's being going on for decades.

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

Nearly all of which stems from narco trafficking...but that's another debate.

iut is but it is also part of this one... the cost of illegals and their criminal activity is very high. If they weren't here they wouldn't commit crfimesz here. I think we can agree that less crime is better than more crime. That being the case it is wise to be better at preventing illegals from crossing our border and staying here.

[FarangBa]

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

Sure "only" 3000 have died in a 10 year period on the US side of the border trying to make it over. I wonder how many Indians died on the way over with their H1B visas? Not to mention the trip from their indigenous countries are fraught with danger as well. If you can find it, there's a pretty good documentary on the trip through Mexico to the US called Chasing El Norte. Only 50% of the immigrants come from Mexico; the rest have to contend with gangs and various other nefarious elements just to get to the border and attempt crossing the desert on the US side.

Since, it looks like this entire conversation is going to stick with the Mexican Illegal Immigrants.. I pose this:

How many LEGAL mexican immigrants died on their way over to the U.S. with their LEGAL visa? Probably almost zero.

Like I said before, If you don't like the current quota system... get a group together, go to Congress and get it changed. It really has ZERO bearing on whether or not we should stop Illegal Immigration (from anywhere.. not just Mexico).

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

Would you be interested in assimilating into a culture that expended so many resources in the effort of keeping you out for virtually no reason at all?

So you are telling me that if you moved ANYWHERE else in the world, you would refuse to learn their language and culture? If so, it's B.S.!!

If I move to France, I learn French
If I move to Mexico, I will learn Spanish
If I move to Namibia, I will learn friggin' Namibian.

[zerojunkie]

Originally Posted by PETA

Well, there is. Mexicans shoot at people coming over their border. I'm not doubting the perils some face. I'm saying that it is not a hidden fact to these people. Further, the US isn't the government creating the peril. The Mexican government and human smugglers etc are. It sucks and it isn't fair but the risk is assumed once they embark upon their enterprise.

Yes, the US government has a major part in creating the peril by ignoring the reality that is staring them in the face. It's just like the drug war. US demand is the problem...satiate the demand and you make the problem a lot more manageable.

Originally Posted by PETA

What does that mean?

Make realistic quotas...blah blah blah

Originally Posted by PETA

Illegal labor creates an unfair advantage for employers using it over those who cannot or do not. Illegal labor cheatsd legal labor out of the higher wage they would otherwise command. It is no argument to say it's being going on for decades.

And commanding that higher wage simply by virtue of being US citizen is...not cheating? The point I was trying to make is that the same practice, with one minor modification, has been going on for decades. Offshoring could be called an unfair advantage and cheating indigenous labor out of higher wages they would otherwise command, could it not? But that practice is legal; the only difference is that the work can go overseas whereas the lettuce farms in California can't. Conceptually those two are nearly identical, and what you're arguing is nothing but protectionism.

Originally Posted by PETA

iut is but it is also part of this one... the cost of illegals and their criminal activity is very high. If they weren't here they wouldn't commit crfimesz here. I think we can agree that less crime is better than more crime. That being the case it is wise to be better at preventing illegals from crossing our border and staying here.

Ok, but by that logic you expel <insert ethnic group here> because of their criminal activity. The crime rate among undocumented workers isn't above the national average. Some of the safest cities in America have the highest immigrant populations.

[PETA]

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

Yes, the US government has a major part in creating the peril by ignoring the reality that is staring them in the face.

So we should just tell those darned Mexicans to treat the illegals coming from south of their border and through their country that they should be much nicer to them as they try to illegally make there way through Mexico and then illegally into the US?

Subsidize (make easier - less dangerous) and unwanted behavior and you'll get more of it.

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

It's just like the drug war. US demand is the problem...satiate the demand and you make the problem a lot more manageable.

Sure, kill demand by aggressively cracking down on businesses using illegals. Make it less attractive for illegals to come by stopping them, capturing them and sending them back.

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

Make realistic quotas...blah blah blah

That's something I'd agree with but I'd make vigorous assimilation demands in exchange for expanded quotas.

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

And commanding that higher wage simply by virtue of being US citizen is...not cheating?

Nope. That's one of the benefits of being a citizen of the US.

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

The point I was trying to make is that the same practice, with one minor modification, has been going on for decades. Offshoring could be called an unfair advantage and cheating indigenous labor out of higher wages they would otherwise command, could it not? But that practice is legal; the only difference is that the work can go overseas whereas the lettuce farms in California can't. Conceptually those two are nearly identical, and what you're arguing is nothing but protectionism.

Nope. Businesses seek to find a way to have an advantage and that's fair as long as legal means are used to do so.

No, I'm, aruing that breaking the law in order to gain an advantage is not ok. It is an illegal advantage to be distinguished from a legal advantage. Protectionist would be demanding that overseas manufactureres pay an American wage or slapping a tariff on the goods to drive up the cost to make them on par w/domestically produced goods.

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

Ok, but by that logic you expel <insert ethnic group here> because of their criminal activity. The crime rate among undocumented workers isn't above the national average. Some of the safest cities in America have the highest immigrant populations.

Um... what? The huge number of illegal mexicans in Texas and California (other states too) cost huge sums of money from the crimes they commit to cost of prosecting and incarcerating. Catching them and sending them home would prevent a huge amount of crime. Because they are uniquely and disproportionately expensive to deal with they are an obvious group to specificlly target for government intervention. There's no <insert ethnic group here>. We don't have the same problems on the same scale with any other ethnic group so you cannot assert in any meaningful way that one ethnic group is as likely to be in need of policing as another. Further, only Mexico is next door. C'mon. This isn't rocket science.

[zerojunkie]

Originally Posted by PETA

So we should just tell those darned Mexicans to treat the illegals coming from south of their border and through their country that they should be much nicer to them as they try to illegally make there way through Mexico and then illegally into the US?

It's not just the Mexican authorities. Sure they'll put you in jail and deport you (if you can't pay the bribe), but the real issue is with the gangs that prey on people immigrating to the US.

Originally Posted by PETA

Subsidize (make easier - less dangerous) and unwanted behavior and you'll get more of it.

My point is that it shouldn't be unwanted behavior.

Originally Posted by PETA

Sure, kill demand by aggressively cracking down on businesses using illegals. Make it less attractive for illegals to come by stopping them, capturing them and sending them back.

That'll be a huge boon for our economy.

Originally Posted by PETA

That's something I'd agree with but I'd make vigorous assimilation demands in exchange for expanded quotas.

Our agreement on this point really makes arguing the rest of them futile, but I'll do it anyways.

Originally Posted by PETA

Nope. That's one of the benefits of being a citizen of the US.

If you're a proponent of a free market economic system then it flies in the face of some of it's core tenets. So, you're obviously a socialist/communist/hippy, good day.

Originally Posted by PETA

Nope. Businesses seek to find a way to have an advantage and that's fair as long as legal means are used to do so.

No, I'm, aruing that breaking the law in order to gain an advantage is not ok. It is an illegal advantage to be distinguished from a legal advantage. Protectionist would be demanding that overseas manufactureres pay an American wage or slapping a tariff on the goods to drive up the cost to make them on par w/domestically produced goods.

I'm not arguing the law should be broken either. I'm arguing the concepts are nearly identical except one is illegal and the other isn't. Which doesn't make sense to anyone other than lawyers.

Originally Posted by PETA

Um... what? The huge number of illegal mexicans in Texas and California (other states too) cost huge sums of money from the crimes they commit to cost of prosecting and incarcerating. Catching them and sending them home would prevent a huge amount of crime. Because they are uniquely and disproportionately expensive to deal with they are an obvious group to specificlly target for government intervention. There's no <insert ethnic group here>.

Hyperbole like "huge sums of money" and "big time in the red" simply aren't congruent with the studies done on the subject.

Originally Posted by PETA

We don't have the same problems on the same scale with any other ethnic group so you cannot assert in any meaningful way that one ethnic group is as likely to be in need of policing as another. Further, only Mexico is next door. C'mon. This isn't rocket science.

Lol, I just said the incarceration rate amongst undocumented immigrants is at the same level, and in many cases lower than the averages. Go look it up.

[zerojunkie]

Originally Posted by FarangBa

So you are telling me that if you moved ANYWHERE else in the world, you would refuse to learn their language and culture? If so, it's B.S.!!

If I move to France, I learn French
If I move to Mexico, I will learn Spanish
If I move to Namibia, I will learn friggin' Namibian.

No, that's not what I said at all. I said we don't necessarily make the environment they're in conducive to assimilation. It's not like your average undocumented worker has access to English classes, that I know of anyways.

Btw, English is the official language in Namibia.

[PETA]

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

It's not just the Mexican authorities. Sure they'll put you in jail and deport you (if you can't pay the bribe), but the real issue is with the gangs that prey on people immigrating to the US.

Ah, so we're to do something about those gangs in Mexico?

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

My point is that it shouldn't be unwanted behavior.

That may be. But it currrently is and if it is made easier to do illegally more of it will occur.

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

Our agreement on this point really makes arguing the rest of them futile, but I'll do it anyways.

lol

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

If you're a proponent of a free market economic system then it flies in the face of some of it's core tenets. So, you're obviously a socialist/communist/hippy, good day.

lol - I'm a pragmatic nationalist who stronly believes in American Exceptionalism and I don't like it being shit on locally by illegal labor and those who exploit illegal laborers.

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

I'm not arguing the law should be broken either. I'm arguing the concepts are nearly identical except one is illegal and the other isn't. Which doesn't make sense to anyone other than lawyers.

Well, in one case you have businesses committing crimes to get tyheir product cheaper and in the other you do not. Does it require a JD to be able to disnghuiosh those? Hippy!

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

Hyperbole like "huge sums of money" and "big time in the red" simply aren't congruent with the studies done on the subject.

Billions of dollars are expended annually in California to deal with gangs made of illegals. Those are billions they needn't spend on that issue. To say nothing of how many fewer people wouild be dead as a result of thier activity. The illegal who isn't in the US isn't committing crimes in the US. How's that for concrete and to the point

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

Lol, I just said the incarceration rate amongst undocumented immigrants is at the same level, and in many cases lower than the averages. Go look it up.

Dude, I worked in the Cali prison systems... not buying. I'm saying mexican criminals here illegally cost Cali billions annualy. That's a reason to better enforce the border - to mitigate those costs as well as the other costs associated with their criminal enterprises.

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

No, that's not what I said at all. I said we don't necessarily make the environment they're in conducive to assimilation. It's not like your average undocumented worker has access to English classes, that I know of anyways.

Their anchor babies do. Its called public school.