Immigration

[FarangBa]

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

No, that's not what I said at all. I said we don't necessarily make the environment they're in conducive to assimilation. It's not like your average undocumented worker has access to English classes, that I know of anyways.

First of all, let's stop with the B.S. progressive semantics. When you 'purposely' call ILLEGAL ALIENS, your 'poor' harmless average undocumented workers... You are purposely trying to generate sympathy for their 'plight' (i.e. insinuate that those who want to enforce our borders are somehow 'mean', heartless or whatever)..

I'm not buying, and when the rest of the poor average DOCUMENTED workers figure out the game you guys are playing.. it's all gonna be over.

Anyway, back to your point. there are actually quite a lot of FREE ESL classes available to virtually anyone. There are even more for a nominal fee that probably don't care if you have I.D. as long as you pay.

Either way, it doesn't matter. If they would come here LEGALLY and assimilate into our society (just like all of our ancestors did) there would be no problems. I welcome them.

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

Btw, English is the official language in Namibia.

That's good to know. That way I know there is a place that I can escape to whenever you guys finally have your way and destroy the U.S.

[zerojunkie]

Originally Posted by FarangBa

First of all, let's stop with the B.S. progressive semantics. When you 'purposely' call ILLEGAL ALIENS, your 'poor' harmless average undocumented workers... You are purposely trying to generate sympathy for their 'plight' (i.e. insinuate that those who want to enforce our borders are somehow 'mean', heartless or whatever)..

Wow, you read a lot into that....as if some subtle phrasing can suddenly garner support like I'm some Obi Wan Kenobi of immigration policy telling you about the immigrants you're not looking for. Get a grip dude, either term applies and I use them interchangeably. The use of undocumented worker in no way implies they're all poor, harmless, or all border patrol personnel are pricks.

Originally Posted by FarangBa

I'm not buying, and when the rest of the poor average DOCUMENTED workers figure out the game you guys are playing.. it's all gonna be over.

Game?

Originally Posted by FarangBa

Anyway, back to your point. there are actually quite a lot of FREE ESL classes available to virtually anyone. There are even more for a nominal fee that probably don't care if you have I.D. as long as you pay.

Ok, I'll take your word for it. Surely since those classes are around then they're being utilized, right. So what's the problem? You're chapped they don't illegally cross the border speaking fluent English? Every study I've seen indicates that when the local government works with the illegal immigrant population instead of against them all sorts of good things start happening. The point I was making was that when everyone is bent on deporting you then what's the point in assimilating?

Originally Posted by FarangBa

Either way, it doesn't matter. If they would come here LEGALLY and assimilate into our society (just like all of our ancestors did) there would be no problems. I welcome them.

This whole thread is about how the laws don't currently address the demand for cheap unskilled labor, and how when your ancestors came over there weren't any quotas in place that arbitrarily denied citizenship. So saying "If they would come here LEGALLY like our ancestors did" means to me you put about .000001 seconds of thought into what you just typed before hitting submit.

Originally Posted by FarangBa

That's good to know. That way I know there is a place that I can escape to whenever you guys finally have your way and destroy the U.S.

I hope you plan to assimilate into Namibian culture after doing so.

[FarangBa]

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

Wow, you read a lot into that....as if some subtle phrasing can suddenly garner support like I'm some Obi Wan Kenobi of immigration policy telling you about the immigrants.....

No, don't misunderstand... I don't think you are Obi Wan.. In fact, I am not suggesting that (YOU) personally are framing the debate in this way on purpose. I am suggesting that the debate has been framed over the last decade by radicals who have taken over the left (apparently without their knowledge). I don't know if you are left or right, but your position (on this issue) aligns with the left. Either way, subtle phrasing makes a HUGE difference. Read Saul D. Alinsky's "Rules For Radicals" and you can see the orchestration.

When the 'opponent' thinks that the border should be enforced, the radical obviously cannot counter that position to the American people on that point alone. The majority of Americans (esp. after 9/11) will say; "Uh, hellz yes we need to enforce the borders. We need to know who is coming and going... and if they are going to work, they need to pay taxes like everyone else." So what option does the radical have to counter the point? He has to avoid the specific issue and take a round about way to garner support from the people and win. The radical does this first by: "picking the target (the opponent) freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. Second: "Ridicule because it is your most potent weapon. There is no defense, It's irrational and infuriating." Third: "never go outside the expertise of your own people". and Fourth: "go outside the expertise of your opponent when possible."

How the heck is this put into practice? First, if your position is open borders.. Find those that can help you (liberals?) convince them that they don't want to be considered mean people with no compassion, closed minded racists or hate mongers. Then change the debate. Pick your opponent (Conservatives, typically) start calling them racists, who hate Mexicans to throw them off-guard. Never, Ever say Illegal Aliens. This will not garner support from the American people. Always say something like "Undocumented Workers" because that sounds like something every American could be sympathetic to (therefore, going outside the expertise of your opponent). Continue to personally berate the opponent by saying that they are heartless or moronic if they believe Illegals should assimilate into our society, pay taxes, and pay for health care. This 'may' eventually garner further support from those 'moderates' because they don't want to be continually brow-beaten or called a Racist, etc. So they publicly may give some support to your cause (out of fear).

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

Ok, I'll take your word for it. Surely since those classes are around then they're being utilized, right. So what's the problem? You're chapped they don't illegally cross the border speaking fluent English?

No, that's absurd. However, those who come here legally... typically have a 'desire' to become part of the fabric of our country. They 'want' to learn English because they understand that it is necessary if you are going to be successful in any way. While you are here Illegally, theyre is zero incentive to do this. You will continue to work 'out of sight' in jobs that may not require much english. The dirtbags that are knowingly hiring you illegally, have no incentive for you to learn either. They would prefer to keep you down so that they can continue to rip you off.

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

This whole thread is about how the laws don't currently address the demand for cheap unskilled labor, and how when your ancestors came over there weren't any quotas in place that arbitrarily denied citizenship. So saying "If they would come here LEGALLY like our ancestors did" means to me you put about .000001 seconds of thought into what you just typed before hitting submit.

I've already discussed the process to change absolutely ANY law in the United States. and if you've just read all that I've written and you still believe that I haven't thought about this issue... then you're thinking must be beyond logic.

[zerojunkie]

Originally Posted by FarangBa

No, don't misunderstand... I don't think you are Obi Wan.. In fact, I am not suggesting that (YOU) personally are framing the debate in this way on purpose. I am suggesting that the debate has been framed over the last decade by radicals who have taken over the left (apparently without their knowledge). I don't know if you are left or right, but your position (on this issue) aligns with the left. Either way, subtle phrasing makes a HUGE difference. Read Saul D. Alinsky's "Rules For Radicals" and you can see the orchestration.

When the 'opponent' thinks that the border should be enforced, the radical obviously cannot counter that position to the American people on that point alone. The majority of Americans (esp. after 9/11) will say; "Uh, hellz yes we need to enforce the borders. We need to know who is coming and going... and if they are going to work, they need to pay taxes like everyone else." So what option does the radical have to counter the point? He has to avoid the specific issue and take a round about way to garner support from the people and win. The radical does this first by: "picking the target (the opponent) freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. Second: "Ridicule because it is your most potent weapon. There is no defense, It's irrational and infuriating." Third: "never go outside the expertise of your own people". and Fourth: "go outside the expertise of your opponent when possible."

How the heck is this put into practice? First, if your position is open borders.. Find those that can help you (liberals?) convince them that they don't want to be considered mean people with no compassion, closed minded racists or hate mongers. Then change the debate. Pick your opponent (Conservatives, typically) start calling them racists, who hate Mexicans to throw them off-guard. Never, Ever say Illegal Aliens. This will not garner support from the American people. Always say something like "Undocumented Workers" because that sounds like something every American could be sympathetic to (therefore, going outside the expertise of your opponent). Continue to personally berate the opponent by saying that they are heartless or moronic if they believe Illegals should assimilate into our society, pay taxes, and pay for health care. This 'may' eventually garner further support from those 'moderates' because they don't want to be continually brow-beaten or called a Racist, etc. So they publicly may give some support to your cause (out of fear).

That makes for a good story and all, and don't doubt that "word marketing" does sway the opinion of some people with peculiarly low IQ's. Nor do I doubt that some supporters have been overzealous in the branding their opposition racists. We'd both be naive though if didn't admit that race does play its role in this. Historically, a lot of immigration laws were rooted in racism. Now I think the US is among the most racially unbiased nations in the world, but you can't deny that for some people race is the motivating factor. That's all I have to say about that. I'd rather argue the merits of the ideas rather than get dragged into some debate on what tactics each sides fringe elements are employing to sway the opinion polls.

Originally Posted by FarangBa

No, that's absurd. However, those who come here legally... typically have a 'desire' to become part of the fabric of our country. They 'want' to learn English because they understand that it is necessary if you are going to be successful in any way. While you are here Illegally, theyre is zero incentive to do this. You will continue to work 'out of sight' in jobs that may not require much english. The dirtbags that are knowingly hiring you illegally, have no incentive for you to learn either. They would prefer to keep you down so that they can continue to rip you off.

You're suggesting there's some kind of inherent difference in the work ethic and drive of people who cross illegally as opposed to ones who don't? You know for being so vehemently anti-socialist you're not exactly pro-capitalism either. No, that's not me ridiculing you. It's just that capitalism's central tenet is the drive to better ones lot in life, and to suggest that one group doesn't have that is well...not capitalistic. There's also what seems to be a tacit support for a minimum wage, but I could be reading too much into that.

Originally Posted by FarangBa

I've already discussed the process to change absolutely ANY law in the United States.

Ok, I know how to participate in a representative democracy. I realize that arguing about it on a dance music forum doesn't enact change.

[zerojunkie]

Originally Posted by PETA

Ah, so we're to do something about those gangs in Mexico?

We sure as hell do something about them if they smuggle drugs.

Originally Posted by PETA

lol - I'm a pragmatic nationalist who stronly believes in American Exceptionalism and I don't like it being shit on locally by illegal labor and those who exploit illegal laborers.

Like, literally, one took a shit on you? How'd you let them get so close?

Originally Posted by PETA

Well, in one case you have businesses committing crimes to get tyheir product cheaper and in the other you do not. Does it require a JD to be able to disnghuiosh those? Hippy!

You have a process that's illegal unless it's applied to another industry and type of work...then it's legal. That flies in the face of everything that's logical. But I guess this is what you do with your law degree.

Originally Posted by PETA

Billions of dollars are expended annually in California to deal with gangs made of illegals. Those are billions they needn't spend on that issue. To say nothing of how many fewer people wouild be dead as a result of thier activity. The illegal who isn't in the US isn't committing crimes in the US. How's that for concrete and to the point



Dude, I worked in the Cali prison systems... not buying. I'm saying mexican criminals here illegally cost Cali billions annualy. That's a reason to better enforce the border - to mitigate those costs as well as the other costs associated with their criminal enterprises.

Ok, but I'm not saying there not a drain on the system at all. I'm saying that when compared to citizens their incarceration rate is not higher.

[FarangBa]

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

We'd both be naive though if didn't admit that race does play its role in this.
Historically, a lot of immigration laws were rooted in racism. Now I think the US is among the most racially unbiased nations in the world, but you can't deny that for some people race is the motivating factor. That's all I have to say about that.

Certainly, there are some racist people in every group... not just white. I just think it is waaaay over emphasized and too often, overplayed.

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

You're suggesting there's some kind of inherent difference in the work ethic and drive of people who cross illegally as opposed to ones who don't?

No, I don't think I said anything about the 'work ethic' of the illegal aliens. I'm talking about the fact that there is an entire underground SLAVE culture which does NOT foster the assimilation of immigrants into our society. They certainly may WANT to learn english and assimilate, but they don't really need to and they may not try because they are illegal (to which I say, come back legally).

It is so funny to hear those on the left decry slavery and blame all the ills of our society on it... and yet, at the same time they virtually approve of the modern day slavery of illegal aliens (inside our own country). It's outrageous if you ask me.

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

You know for being so vehemently anti-socialist you're not exactly pro-capitalism either. No, that's not me ridiculing you. It's just that capitalism's central tenet is the drive to better ones lot in life, and to suggest that one group doesn't have that is well...not capitalistic.

Not sure where you were going with that one, but I think I answered it above. Obviously, the illegals are coming here to better themselves and their families' future. But we can't look at it from their point of view, we have to be concerned with Our country, Our economy, and Our safety. It's not our fault that the Mexican government and economy is so screwed up. At some point, the other countries are going to have to face up to the fact that they have screwed themselves up and they should fix it.

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

There's also what seems to be a tacit support for a minimum wage, but I could be reading too much into that.

I'm working within the realm of what we have to offer. Which is how everyone should work. If I want to eliminate the minimum wage, I would try to get enough people together and work the system. So, I'm working with what he have. We have a minimum wage, so shouldn't ALL immigrants be paid what is considered the minimum fair amount? Or should we just keep them enslaved or keep them from assimilating? And for what? so that our lettuce doesn't go up in price?

Originally Posted by zerojunkie

Ok, I know how to participate in a representative democracy. I realize that arguing about it on a dance music forum doesn't enact change.

Excellent, I was just checking.. because although you say you understand the process, you kind of keep reverting back to something like it doesn't matter if they are illegal, it's our fault they are illegal and let's just ignore the law.

[Deff Gordon]

i laugh at the people that think we should round them all up and send them back home.

some really stupid people out there.

[FarangBa]

Originally Posted by Deff Gordon

i laugh at the people that think we should round them all up and send them back home.

some really stupid people out there.

That pretty much wouldn't work. Reagan had it halfway right, but the closing of the borders in order to stop further Illegal Immigration... never happened.

So, here we sit in the same situation.... again!

[Deff Gordon]

Originally Posted by FarangBa

That pretty much wouldn't work. Reagan had it halfway right, but the closing of the borders in order to stop further Illegal Immigration... never happened.

So, here we sit in the same situation.... again!

pretty much wouldn't work?

lol

i'm just thinking the cost of going on a est 30million person witch hunt, rounding them up, processing, then shipping them off...

not to mention the economic collapse that would happen from the loss of workforce. it's not like they aren't entrenched into our society and economy.

again... i laugh at the people that think we should be doing that.

[FarangBa]

Originally Posted by Deff Gordon

i'm just thinking the cost of going on a est 30million person witch hunt, rounding them up, processing, then shipping them off...
again... i laugh at the people that think we should be doing that.

I can certainly agree with that. It's our fault that we are in the situation we are in (i.e. not enforcing the current laws)

Originally Posted by Deff Gordon

..not to mention the economic collapse that would happen from the loss of workforce. it's not like they aren't entrenched into our society and economy.

Not quite with you on this point though. It would totally suck and prices would go up, but 'economic collapse'.. I'm not sure about that.

For the record, I will pay $4 for a head of lettuce if it means that we will no longer be supporting the slavery of Illegal Aliens in our own country.

[Deff Gordon]

Originally Posted by FarangBa

I can certainly agree with that. It's our fault that we are in the situation we are in (i.e. not enforcing the current laws)


Not quite with you on this point though. It would totally suck and prices would go up, but 'economic collapse'.. I'm not sure about that.

For the record, I will pay $4 for a head of lettuce if it means that we will no longer be supporting the slavery of Illegal Aliens in our own country.

it would fuck a lot of shit up. they aren't just picking our veggies. they build our roads, houses, schools, hospital. they are involved with just about every aspect of our economy. removing that amount of people... the cost of it would collapse our economy. probably talking about a trillion or so to go on the witch hunts to the trickle down of fucking up every business along the way.

talk about a waste of government spending...

it's not like they crossed the border to just to do something illegal. we want them here and employ them. you can't even begin to argue that removing 30+ million workers in our economy wouldn't have dire consequences. if you believe that... then you should take some classes at the local community college and learn you some stuff.

[FarangBa]

Originally Posted by Deff Gordon

it would fuck a lot of shit up. they aren't just picking our veggies. they build our roads, houses, schools, hospital. they are involved with just about every aspect of our economy. removing that amount of people... the cost of it would collapse our economy. probably talking about a trillion or so to go on the witch hunts to the trickle down of fucking up every business along the way.

talk about a waste of government spending...

it's not like they crossed the border to just to do something illegal. we want them here and employ them. you can't even begin to argue that removing 30+ million workers in our economy wouldn't have dire consequences. if you believe that... then you should take some classes at the local community college and learn you some stuff.

Dang, what have I ever said that would make you think I don't have a college education? Wow, you're pretty arrogant.

This reminds me of the 1860's when plantation owners used this excuse as an argument against ending slavery. "Why the price of cotton will go up way too high and destroy our entire economy".

[Deff Gordon]

I wasn't assuming anything... just stating an economcs class should be in your future.

And lol at comparing me to a slave owner. you have got to be kidding me!

[PETA]

Originally Posted by Deff Gordon

pretty much wouldn't work?

lol

i'm just thinking the cost of going on a est 30million person witch hunt, rounding them up, processing, then shipping them off...

not to mention the economic collapse that would happen from the loss of workforce. it's not like they aren't entrenched into our society and economy.

again... i laugh at the people that think we should be doing that.

that number is nearly twenty million too high*

presuming of the 11-12 million of illegals that all are working (not very likely when you factor in all the criminals, children, stay at home mom's or dad's etc) I think we've got an equal number of unemployed Americans who could probably get off of unemployment and take those jobs

So, you're making an argument of pragmatism? It is too hard to enforce the law? Because the other half - that it is unwise to do so - doesn't quite work.




*
Illegal immigration to the United States refers to the act of foreign nationals violating U.S. immigration policies and national laws by immigrating to the United States without proper consent from the United States government.[1]

The Illegal immigrant population of the United States is estimated to be about 11 million people, down from a historic peak of 12.5 million people in 2007.[2] According to a Pew Hispanic Center report, in 2005 57% of illegal immigrants were from Mexico, 24% were from other Latin American countries, primarily from Central America,[3] 9% were from Asia, 6% were from Europe and Canada, and 4% were from the rest of the world.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal..._United_States

[Deff Gordon]

I'm arguing that it would be an epic waste of money to enforce the laws. As for the numbers... there are estimates all over the board. Regardless... enforcing them and going on a 10million person witch hunt is rediculous and wasteful.

Also... those 10 million Americans that are looking for work are never going to do he same jobs at all. never. ever. ever...