Immigration

[PETA]

Originally Posted by Deff Gordon

I'm arguing that it would be an epic waste of money to enforce the laws. As for the numbers... there are estimates all over the board. Regardless... enforcing them and going on a 10million person witch hunt is rediculous and wasteful.

why? All estimates are that on balance the economic benefits from the presence of illegals is offset but the economic costs in terms of social welfare, criminal costs and other costs related to the jobs that americans would have but for illegals taking them at artificially low rates of pay. It is a sound argument that enforcing the law would yield economic benefit by reducing those costs.

Originally Posted by Deff Gordon

Also... those 10 million Americans that are looking for work are never going to do he same jobs at all. never. ever. ever...

Disagree. They probably wouldn't and couldn't do it for under the table pay in cash because they'd be breaking the law but employers who need the work done would need the work done. They'd have to pay a fair cost for labor. I don't see a problem with that.

I'm partially on board with zero... clearly these people want to be here. Find a practical and legal wayt to make it possible. I'd add a good deal of assimilation requirements and much more aggressive border enforcement (as well as booting illegals out). But I don't see the pragmantic argument as being so clearly persuausive that we should continue to say, "fuck it" with regard to illegal alien policy. That being the case we should be clearing them out and sending them home.

[Deff Gordon]

i totally agree we should find a way to bring them into our system.

as for enforcing it and it being a wash is a wet dream at best. the best way ever to do this is to bring them into our system.

also... there are millions of them that aren't working "cash under the table" - they have taxes and SS taken out just like everybody else.

[tricky]

If we got rid of the mexicans, who would do the cooking and cleaning at our beloved Olive Garden.

Don't deport the mexicans!!!

[J. Fees]

the bottom line is that all illegal immigration is all about the keeping bottom line costs of goods and services cheaper than would be possible with U.S citizens.

[PETA]

Originally Posted by J. Fees

the bottom line is that all illegal immigration is all about the keeping bottom line costs of goods and services cheaper than would be possible with U.S citizens.

That's true as far as it goes but again, restricting my comments to just the jobs issue, the use of illegal labor creates an unfair (and illegal) advantage for those who use it and at the same time depresses the wage market for legal labor. I don't agree with Deff about cost of keeping them vs booting them. I posted up a lengthy article (the links to the whole thing and executive summary) on this issue in a response to Zero if either you are Deff care to read it

[Deff Gordon]

so how much will it cost to round up 10+ million people?

$5?

[PETA]

Originally Posted by Deff Gordon

so how much will it cost to round up 10+ million people?

$5?

read the article

I think if you frame the issue a little differently it might more sense. The cost expenditure of increased enforcement is obviously substantial but it must be weighed against the dollars no longer being spent elsewhere. Lots of balls in the air at the same time. Like I said a few posts above, for me, unless there is a very persuasive reason not to enfore the law it should be enforced. If we don't want to enforce it as written then change it reflect the reality of the situation. That's both a purist/ideaslist and pragmatic perspective on the issue.... and I don't very often indulge in idealism.

executive summary: http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/sr12es.cfm

[FarangBa]

Originally Posted by Deff Gordon

I wasn't assuming anything... just stating an economcs class should be in your future.

This would be where the assumption came from:

Originally Posted by Deff Gordon

if you believe that... then you should take some classes at the local community college and learn you some stuff.

You really shouldn't get all uppity about defending the status quo on economics, nor should you be throwing your 'basic knowledge of economics' statements around all of the time. I realize we are on a different thread, but your own 'basic economics' prove that when the government subsidizes a product, it increases the demand. What happens when the demand is increased?? The price increases!

So, let's try to keep the arrogance to a minimum and unfortunately, (since we are talking about modern day slavery) yes, your comments are directly in-line with those opposing the abolition of slavery in the 1860's. The only difference is you don't believe that Illegal Immigrants are slaves.. I contend, they are!

[Deff Gordon]

wish i had time to read it.

but anything other than saying it's wasted money to set up a task force to yank ten to 30 million people out of their homes, jobs, etc. to deport them is
1) expensive
2) a waste

[FarangBa]

Originally Posted by Deff Gordon

wish i had time to read it.

but anything other than saying it's wasted money to set up a task force to yank ten to 30 million people out of their homes, jobs, etc. to deport them is
1) expensive
2) a waste

Already agreed with you on that point. No arguments there!

Only disagreement is... what next??

I say close the borders, deal with immigration laws, etc.
You have said.. eff it, open the borders altogether.

[Quick Edit:] Haha, I just realized you were talking about PETA's link... lolz

[Deff Gordon]

first we need to figure a way about bringing them into the system. they're already here... they have cash... tax em and let them live their lives.

opening the borders can come later.

[J. Fees]

we do get sales tax from them.

[Deff Gordon]

Originally Posted by J. Fees

we do get sales tax from them.

that's city/state.

no federal income tax, ss, medicare...

[PETA]

Originally Posted by Deff Gordon

wish i had time to read it.

but anything other than saying it's wasted money to set up a task force to yank ten to 30 million people out of their homes, jobs, etc. to deport them is
1) expensive
2) a waste

You keep referring to a number not commonly accepted... 12.5M at its peak in 2007. You're more than double an accurate number.

If you're not going to read the article and not accept that its possible that illegals cost more than they contribute we'll have to just be done

11.6 in 2006 http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/s...ll_pe_2006.pdf

11.6 in January of 2008 (citing DHS report) http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...igration_N.htm

Originally Posted by J. Fees

we do get sales tax from them.

yup - they do pay excise taxes

[david austin]

I believe we all underestimate the jobs that people will do if it comes down to it.

During the Depression we had vast relocations of populations looking for work.

I am not advocating a 'round up' but we are dangerously close to having a population to work ratio that will cause a collapse on its own.