for the people and by the people

[Hey Bubu]

If our government is here to serve the people as it was intended couldn't the public make the president and his aids from stopping the war? besides doing the standar protest rallies and what not.

Originally posted by TypeH
If our government is here to serve the people as it was intended couldn't the public make the president and his aids from stopping the war? besides doing the standar protest rallies and what not.

Nope. We don't live in a democracy, we live in a representative republic. We elect people we hope will vote in a fashion that accurately reflects our beliefs, but we have no real power to make them do anything other than by not re-electing those people who fail to accurately represent us.

That, and the part about the majority of American sentiment being against you. While the Draves microcosm is aflame with anti-war sentiment, America at large isn't.

[Adam D]

All the polls I've seen recently at very least reject the idea of unilateral war without hard evidence of noncompliance with Resolution 1441.

[Adam D]

I was merely disputing the final claim of 3curl.

Originally posted by Adam D
All the polls I've seen recently at very least reject the idea of unilateral war without hard evidence of noncompliance with Resolution 1441.

The problem here is that nobody seems to be bright enough to understand what 1441 meant. The wording of the resolution was very clear, and outlined a very simple course of action Iraq had to follow to avoid having their turbans knocked sideways. The resolution states in no uncertain terms that Iraq must provide a full accounting of their WMD or face "serious consequences". The French interpretation of "serious consequences" notwithstanding, Iraq is already in material breach of contract for having provided false and misleading information in the 11,000 page work of fiction they tried to pass of as a full accounting of their weapons programs and inventories.

That is the ONLY matter at hand on 1441. Iraq is in breach. Aegis class missile cruisers, you may fire when ready.

[Adam D]

See, I don't see any clear evidence how Iraq has failed to comply. The empty warheads found? Those were in the disclosure they provided. The failure of scientists to speak to investigators? You cannot force people to speak if they choose not to. Colin Powell lied to the Security Council about them running weapons around to be hidden, and Blix accurately discredited Powell on that one.

Please, give me something clear about how Iraq has failed to comply.

Originally posted by Adam D
See, I don't see any clear evidence how Iraq has failed to comply. The empty warheads found? Those were in the disclosure they provided. The failure of scientists to speak to investigators? You cannot force people to speak if they choose not to. Colin Powell lied to the Security Council about them running weapons around to be hidden, and Blix accurately discredited Powell on that one.

Please, give me something clear about how Iraq has failed to comply.

They possess VX gas stocks that are known to exist by both the international intelligence community and the weapons inspectors, and those gas weapons were NOT listed in Iraq's weapons disclosure reports. They are trying to produce an additional report to cover the VX gas weapons now.

The fact that these weapons were not in the original report constitutes legal breach of 1441.

[Adam D]

Care to give any citation for this?

Originally posted by Adam D
Care to give any citation for this?

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Iraq (news - web sites), seeking to avert a threatened U.S. invasion, will submit a new report on VX nerve gas and anthrax stocks in a week's time, the United Nations (news - web sites) said on Monday as Baghdad scrapped more of its banned missiles.

Iraq says it has destroyed all its chemical and biological arms, but chief U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix, due to report on Iraqi compliance to the U.N. Security Council at week's end, says Iraq has provided no details to back up that claim.

Iraq and U.N. arms experts discussed on Sunday Baghdad's proposal for "quantitative verification" of VX and anthrax. Iraq says it has carried out recent excavations that proved it has destroyed "important quantities" of the banned substances.

"Iraq will be providing a report on the VX and anthrax in a week's time," Hiro Ueki, spokesman for U.N. weapons inspectors in Baghdad, told Reuters.

[Adam D]

These were the stocks Iraq claimed to have disposed of in the 90's, that Blix talked about last time he reported to the UNSC. It would make sense that if they were destroyed some time ago...that there wouldn't be anything to disclose. Blix asked for evidence that they had been destroyed, although he admitted that such evidence may not exist and they ought not hold that against Iraq. Iraq stated that there was not any immediate evidence, but would research it. Apparently, they have found enough to create a report.

This doesn't mean that any of the stocks still exist.

[Big Andy]

Not to mention that it's not the US's responsibility to enforce UN resolutions... without the UN's endorsement, that is. When the UN has decided collectively that action need be taken, then I wouldn't be totally against the US helping a lil bit. But for the US to have such a "fuck everybody else! We want Saddam!" kinda attitude, is really not logical.

[Element4040]

If the US really had a fuck everybody else attitude, then we would already be in Iraq, because the longer we wait the worse it's gonna get. The army does not want to fight a war in Iraq in the Summer.

Personally, I agree that Iraq is most likely in breach in some form of 1441. I understand it and can deduce such from my own observations of primary and secondary media accounts. However, having a 'law' has never been enough to necessitate the mandatory punishments allotted.

We will see what happens with the VX 'stocks' and other information. Iraq is clearly dragging its feet, and smartly so if they can hold out for a few more weeks. Nevertheless, I do not think any of this leads to a justification for such a drastic action, especially in light of our stated motives versus our technical capabilities (ie regime change and removing a horrible man and eliminating weapons of mass destruction versus determining whether there is any crossing of a line laid out by the UN).

[Michael Halo]

If this country was truly a democracy, we would have large votes, just like presidential elections, to decide large issues like...should we go to war?