U Michigan Case...

CEO weighs in...

CEO being the Center for Equal Opportunity...

Personally, I think the ACLU is dead wrong on this issue - how can you stand for equal opportunity and protection of civil liberties and tolerate race-based admissions with a clear conscience? Why don't people want to be measured solely on their achievements and merit? IMHO, until we get rid of race-based admissions, we're contributing to the problem...

[Adam D]

I don't care much for race-based admissions, but I do think they are the best method found so far for offsetting the sort of racism that plagued our nation during the 60's and beforehand. I'd like to see a new method of dealing with this problem, I just have yet to find one that has some legitimate backing.

You can remove race-based admissions standards, which I suppose removes any racial barrier to white admissions, but what about minorities? It's nice to assume that we have come to a point where none of this is necessary, but sadly, we have not. There is still strong levels of racism in many parts of the country, and THAT isn't fair either. Take Dallas for example. The DISD wants to rollback the federal rules which obligate them to bus students, diversify the schools, and end segregation. On face it doesn't sound like a problem until you look at the other bahavior of the school board, which has notoriously stepped up gerrymandering of the schools (much like they have with city council) which keeps all of the wealth situated up in the north and central areas of the city, and leaves the rest of the city's schools to continue to be more broke and underfunded than they are now under current gerrymandering. Suprisingly enough, the poor areas are primarily minorities and the wealthier areas are primarily white. (That's quite a short version of that story) If we can't get the problem fixed at the public school level, what hope do we have to make it disappear at the college level?

Redistricting based solely on race or ethnicity is not only wrong, it violates the Voting Rights Act of 1965. All changes to election districts, from school boards to Congress, must now be approved by the USDOJ, as widespread abuse has created a definite need (and I'm not talking about a specific group, either, but a general misuse).

What about measuring people based solely on their achievements? While we may think we're doing people a favor by bending admission requirements, what we're really saying is,"So, you can't measure up, but it's okay because your (insert race here)". What does that tell people? It doesn't make up for any prior treatment at all, it says that someone deserves to be measured on a different standard solely based on the color of their skin or their ethnicity. What kind of message does that send? It sends the message that not measuring up is okay, that someone can rely on that trump card their entire life - in other words, it KILLS empowerment. Why struggle harder when you don't have to? Why push yourself to excel when you don't have to?

[Adam D]

But what happens when you have admissions officers who are blatantly denying people admissions because of their race, as was happening when the Legislature put this into law? Then, you also have a failure to support empowerment equally across the board.

Originally posted by Adam D
But what happens when you have admissions officers who are blatantly denying people admissions because of their race, as was happening when the Legislature put this into law? Then, you also have a failure to support empowerment equally across the board.

Right, that's equally as wrong... Public universities should be beholden to the standards already established for equal opportunity - meaning, no favortism, regardless of race, ethnicity, or creed. It will be a welcome event when we mature beyond our current societal state and people truly look past someone's race, ethnicity, or religious preference.

In any event, I'd expect more interesting litigation to be brought to the forefront...

[Element4040]

Originally posted by Adam D
I don't care much for race-based admissions, but I do think they are the best method found so far for offsetting the sort of racism that plagued our nation during the 60's and beforehand. I'd like to see a new method of dealing with this problem, I just have yet to find one that has some legitimate backing.

You can remove race-based admissions standards, which I suppose removes any racial barrier to white admissions, but what about minorities? It's nice to assume that we have come to a point where none of this is necessary, but sadly, we have not. There is still strong levels of racism in many parts of the country, and THAT isn't fair either. Take Dallas for example. The DISD wants to rollback the federal rules which obligate them to bus students, diversify the schools, and end segregation. On face it doesn't sound like a problem until you look at the other bahavior of the school board, which has notoriously stepped up gerrymandering of the schools (much like they have with city council) which keeps all of the wealth situated up in the north and central areas of the city, and leaves the rest of the city's schools to continue to be more broke and underfunded than they are now under current gerrymandering. Suprisingly enough, the poor areas are primarily minorities and the wealthier areas are primarily white. (That's quite a short version of that story) If we can't get the problem fixed at the public school level, what hope do we have to make it disappear at the college level?

I totally agree with Adam on this one 100%, I couldn't have stated my beliefs better myself.

I just wanted to add an example from an article I had read a few months back. I wish I had a better memory and knew the name of the mag, but oh well I'll try to relate it the best I can.

Basically it was an article on companies hiring procedures. And there was an amazing statistic on how many resumes didn't even make it to the interview process because of the peoples names. People were not being brought in because they had black names, or hispanic names or whatever the case may be for the individual companies racial bias. I bring this up because this is a very real possiblility at the college admissions as well. People's applications not even being looked at because of their name implying their racial background.

I also wanted to add that I am 100% in favor of busing. I was a product of busing in West Texas for 3 different grade levels. And I firmly believe it made me a better person. Without busing I would'nt have had the opportunity to make as many diverse friedships as I had then and now. I would probably be living in this narrow little white world as my town was very segregated as far as color was concerned. I am much better off having been bused as a youngun

It’s nice to talk about something other than war, thanks for this subject…

I agree with Scobib...I have a friend of a friend’s little sister who applied at an Ivy League school, along with a black girl in her class at her high school. The white girl had much better grades, was a cheerleader, on the homecoming committee, on the prom court, Vice Pres. of her class, in all sorts of clubs, honor roll, etc. She received a denial letter and was heart broken because this was the school she really wanted to get into. Luckily she wasn’t stupid enough to only apply to this one, so she had other option.

A couple of days later she found out the black girl had been accepted, and even though the black girl was extremely smart, she was clearly not as well studied or involved with her school as the white girl was. We think it has to do with race-based admissions. Her and her parents have taken to fighting this but they are basically fighting a losing battle. I do not approve of this on either side, regardless of race. (If the black girl had been smarter and more involved and the white girl had gotten in, I would still be just as pissed; I don’t want anyone to think I am racist here)

It is said that times have pushed us to develop ways to ensure the other races are given equal opportunities, because these ways that ensure equal opportunities can end up fucking other rightfully deserving people right up the ass. It’s a catch 22.

And I am sure that it will spawn off into another conversation, but I am also against the fact that black colleges are allowed but if there were a whites only college the NAACP would shit their pants. I think it is hypocrisy to ask for equal opportunities and then have obvious exceptions to the rule.

Originally posted by PhatBuddha
And I am sure that it will spawn off into another conversation, but I am also against the fact that black colleges are allowed but if there were a whites only college the NAACP would shit their pants. I think it is hypocrisy to ask for equal opportunities and then have obvious exceptions to the rule.

Several WASP scholarship funds popped up in the last several years, and nearly all of them have been challenged with litigation... there is an obvious double-standard, IMHO.

[Adam D]

Actually, white people are admitted to black colleges.

[Infrared]

Originally posted by PhatBuddha


And I am sure that it will spawn off into another conversation, but I am also against the fact that black colleges are allowed but if there were a whites only college the NAACP would shit their pants. I think it is hypocrisy to ask for equal opportunities and then have obvious exceptions to the rule.

But even black colleges, technically, can't deny a white person admission based on race, or so I've heard.

What about private vs. public institutions? Should private institutions be subject to the same regulations as public institutions? When I mean private, I mean totally private - not accepting any state or federal monies at all (no grants, no funding, nothing).

Just a question... I obviously have an opinion, but wanted to see what everyone else thinks.

[Infrared]

Originally posted by scobib
What about private vs. public institutions? Should private institutions be subject to the same regulations as public institutions? When I mean private, I mean totally private - not accepting any state or federal monies at all (no grants, no funding, nothing).

Just a question... I obviously have an opinion, but wanted to see what everyone else thinks.

That's a bit different, and, morally speaking, I would hope such discrimination wouldn't have to go on. But then again, I do live in the real world and don't expect much from people.

It's kind of along the same lines as the smoking issue. I totally understand the smoking ban....but only in public restaurants and such. It should be up to the individual business owner to allow smoking in his/her establishment or not.

When it deals with racial discrimination, an issue that plucks severely higher moral heartstrings than a mere smoking ban, I would hope racial bans would not come into question.

Once again, as mentioned before in this thread, it's a catch-22 situation, or better said, a double standard.

Originally posted by Infrared
But even black colleges, technically, can't deny a white person admission based on race, or so I've heard.

Yes, but the college is hailed as a black college. If I started a college and hailed it as a white college, all white history, all white people, etc., I would face hell.

[Infrared]

Originally posted by PhatBuddha
Yes, but the college is hailed as a black college. If I started a college and hailed it as a white college, all white history, all white people, etc., I would face hell.

very true, but there's some history there

Originally posted by scobib
What about private vs. public institutions? Should private institutions be subject to the same regulations as public institutions? When I mean private, I mean totally private - not accepting any state or federal monies at all (no grants, no funding, nothing).

Just a question... I obviously have an opinion, but wanted to see what everyone else thinks.

I am not sure; I think that just because they are a private institution doesn’t mean they should be allowed to racially discriminate. Then again, I don’t agree with race-based admissions in the first place.

I think there is a medium not being looked at, not being considered. I can understand this issue from both sides. It isn’t right to deny a student’s entry based on ethnicity, religion, etc., but it isn’t right to deny a student’s entry because too many kids of one color have already been accepted. Either way, you are denying an opportunity, which is the reason the program was put into effect in the first place. So by that definition, the program is working against itself.

And don’t even get me started about the school systems functioning completely corrupt at the expense of the kids…how have we gotten so far away from education and so much into greed…I guess that is the natural order of this world, or so it seems to be…