Flagwaving: sign of conformity, redneck hostility, or noble patriotism?

I read an interesting article at the Heritage Foundation's website about the dark undercurrent of flagwaving, and a converation ensued.


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My mom started to fly the American flag outside her house because my brother Scott joined the Army (as a result of 9/11 I might add, he's a true patriot). It makes my mom feel good that she has the flag up, it reminds her of her son who's putting his life on the line for our freedom, and the people in the neighborhood like it too.
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So its blind patriotism and stylishness that motivate. Well how is the little patriot doing in Afghanistan? They feel they are getting closer to bin Laden? Most of the 800 soliders in special forces were quietly transferred to Iraq. So much for our admin. backing up you're brother's original intentions of fighting the war.







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You know what, I think people who fly the flag ARE more American! At least more patriotic, because they're not embarrased, ashamed, and cynical like you are. I guess some people just like raining on someone elses parade.
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Well gee there's alot to be embarrassed, ashamed, and cynical about, and we probably wouldn't be in this war if people we're more cynical about Bush's true intentions for the Iraqi people. All it takes is pulling your head out of your ass for moment to figure that out.

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As if having "old-school" credentials in dance music wasn't retarded enough, now we have elitism about the American flag. Goodie.
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There probably needs to be elitism. The problem is some people have no right to wave the flag and that make a mockery of everything that it stands for Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (or they know what it stands for but think it applies for only certain people), or maybe we should get rid of flags and people should express themselves like people that have some education by writing down on posterboard their patriotic feelings and posting them on their front door of their houses or business, that is if they're not too embarassed or ashamed:

"We love our soldiers in Iraq. Please come home."

"Go turn Iraq into a piece of glass and afterwards bomb the hell out of Red China."

"We're patriotic and we support the troops too, so come on down to David McDavid and we'll hook you up with a good deal on a new SUV"

"I'm patriotic so please don't beat me up because I'm from India, not Afghanistan."

"The rest of you are just ungrateful pigs that don't know how to express your love properly for this country, unlike me of course."

He has spoken.....

a flag is just a symbol. thats all it is.

[randyc]

That flag is many things to many people. It's pretty foolish to think that just because somebody's waving it for a slightly different reason than you, they're wrong.


The confederate flag is a perfect example. To some people, it's a symbol of oppression. I don't believe in that shit. The confederate flag, to me, represents the rights of states and individuals over the federal government. No, i don't drive a ford. No, i can't make my car jump over a river while some country and western singer tells you to 'stay tuned, folks'.

[Dionysos]

Originally posted by randyc
The confederate flag is a perfect example. To some people, it's a symbol of oppression. I don't believe in that shit. The confederate flag, to me, represents the rights of states and individuals over the federal government. No, i don't drive a ford. No, i can't make my car jump over a river while some country and western singer tells you to 'stay tuned, folks'.

I agree that it can represent other things, but invariably the people who sport it aren't using it for an alternative purpose.

[randyc]

i know people who aren't racists but have a confederate flag on something. it means the same to them as it does to me: people's rights over federal mandate.

[johnny861]

Originally posted by randyc
That flag is many things to many people. It's pretty foolish to think that just because somebody's waving it for a slightly different reason than you, they're wrong.


The confederate flag is a perfect example. To some people, it's a symbol of oppression. I don't believe in that shit. The confederate flag, to me, represents the rights of states and individuals over the federal government. No, i don't drive a ford. No, i can't make my car jump over a river while some country and western singer tells you to 'stay tuned, folks'.

Flags are symbols, but as goes with symbols, goes poeple's beliefs or interpretations over symbols. Some beliefs overrule others... The confederate flag is a difficult symbol. To many, it is a symbol of slavery and oppression and to others, a symbol of the south.

Being born and raised in the south, as was my mom and her grandparents and their grandparents, etc. It is symbolic representation of the land my ancestors come from.


Though it is widely interpretted as the military flag of the confederacy, it should also be noted that the American Flag many "patriotic" Americans put infront of their houses and on their cars is the American military flag, not the civilian flag.


http://johnny861.org/upload/files/civilflag.jpg

http://johnny861.org/upload/files/vertticle.gif


Again, knowing a little history about the flag, I find it funny when anti-war protestors gather in parks waving the American battle flag demanding peace. It's not their fault though. A symbol is, afterall, all about interpretation.

And to few American's knowledge, the American military flag, since reconstruction, has developed as the symbol of both american military and civilians alike.

[hepkatmama]

its too bad its legal to use the flag

to sell things

but its happened since we got the flag i suppose.


americans are so slimy with their symbolic gestures.


some wave it in nostalgia
some do it prove their allegiance (and naturalized status)
some do it to show support of troops there
some do it to remind the patriotic reasons for bringing those kids home.

we all got our reasons
& the freedom of speech to keep on

[SOA Child]

Originally posted by randyc
i know people who aren't racists but have a confederate flag on something. it means the same to them as it does to me: people's rights over federal mandate.

why not just put a sticker on your car that says "people's rights over federal mandate" rather than use a symbol that MOST people are going to associate with racism. Your message is lost if the majority of the people who see it think that it means something other than what you intend for it to mean.

postedy by Johnny861:

Being born and raised in the south, as was my mom and her grandparents and their grandparents, etc. It is symbolic representation of the land my ancestors come from.

Just about the land??

That's a way to gloss over history? And the Nazi flag is merely a symbolic representation of the German people and their land and their beer.

As if we can just completely ignore that there wouldn't be any bars and stripes if Abe Lincoln hadn't declared "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free." just alittle over a month before South Carolina became the first state to secede from the Union and several others two months later.

Again, knowing a little history about the flag, I find it funny when anti-war protestors gather in parks waving the American battle flag demanding peace. It's not their fault though. A symbol is, afterall, all about interpretation.

A bunch of "states' right-to-enslave-people" revisionist propaganda. It's not the fault of the so-called "anti-war" protesters that you don't know your history.

The original flag law of 1777, and the amendments of 1794 and 1818, refer to the "flag of the United States", not the "civil flag of the United States" or the "military and/or naval flag of the United States"; and while the 1777 and 1794 acts do not specify the direction of the stripes, the act of 1818 clearly specifies that the stripes are to be horizontal.

This "Civil flag" just distiguinshed civilian from military affair jurisdictions and was mainly used by the customs service and the revenue marine/coast guard since 1799. You can also probably keep in mind that this took place just after the revolution, a time when people were plagued by british military/naval encroachment in typically non-military civilian affairs, and flags were used to distinguish certain civil affair posts. Why people should be flying this flag to show their opposition to the war in Iraq? Officially for nearly all of the nation's history, according to the U.S. Congress, the horizontal stripes is The Flag of the nation.


Read real history here:

http://www.webleyweb.com/klh/flag.html

[johnny861]

Originally posted by Vortex

Just about the land??

That's a way to gloss over history? And the Nazi flag is merely a symbolic representation of the German people and their land and their beer.


Again, it is a touchy subject, that should be approached carefully, as it affects many americans closely. Symbols, as they have been used throughout history, have impacts on many cultures leaving each culture or individual(s) their own personal attentions to symbols, while acknowledging its other meanings as well.


The german falcon, dating back centuries, and known as a symbol of germany, was used widely by the nazi's.

I don't think one should equate the falcon with nazism as it is a symbol of the german people, not of the nazi regime that used it.

The cross in the confederate battleflag is based on the cross of St. Andrew, a noted symbol of the Scottish people. I'm not masking over "The Land" with a flag. It's a matter of the interpretation of the symbol, dominated by historical events.

When a hindi uses a bitriangular red flag with a white swastika, I don't think his intentions are towards facism.

Yes, there are variations of symbols and meanings and usage, but what this shows is that human symbolism is multi-faceted


As if we can just completely ignore that there wouldn't be any bars and stripes if Abe Lincoln hadn't declared "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free." just alittle over a month before South Carolina became the first state to secede from the Union and several others two months later.


Again, I am not ignoring our nation's past, forever tarnished by the horrors of slavery, a practice that should have never been done.


This "Civil flag" just distiguinshed civilian from military affair jurisdictions and was mainly used by the customs service and the revenue marine/coast guard since 1799. You can also probably keep in mind that this took place just after the revolution, a time when people were plagued by british military/naval encroachment in typically non-military civilian affairs, and flags were used to distinguish certain civil affair posts. Why people should be flying this flag to show their opposition to the war in Iraq? Officially for nearly all of the nation's history, according to the U.S. Congress, the horizontal stripes is The Flag of the nation.


I stand corrected, my apologies.

The latest Section in U.S. Code clarifies this.

U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1 does state: "The flag of the United States shall be thirteen horizontal stripes, alternate red and white; and the union of the flag shall be forty-eight stars, white in a blue field." (July 30, 1947, ch. 389, 61 Stat. 642).

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/4/1.html

hehe, the confederate flag

you know.....before they banned it at Ole Miss games, they used to wave them at football games.....when a black guy scored a touchdown.


The German Eagle like many things German, including WORDS, (Whermact, Shutzstaffen, etc, and even less powerfull words no longer exist in german language other than in thier historic context) were revised after the war....not by americans but by Germans.
This was to remove the power that the symbols had. Symbols have power, symbols evoke emotion, be they good are bad.


"Symbols are for the simple minded" - George Carlin

[USAcommitteeX]

Burn the Confederate flag!

[johnny861]

No, I certainly don't agree with the Confederate flag being place on a stateflag, unless positioned subordinate in the plane away from the upper left, as some countries do to represent their history...

There's no excuse for a flag to bear a confederate flag in the upper right of the plane, nor the union jack for that matter, seeing as hawaii is not a colony of Great Britain...

[randyc]

oh fuck...

i just typed some cool shit and erased it.



to put it short.

the indians used a swastika type symbol in their religions. indians did not inflict genocide on jews.
think about it......
???