Iraqi official says limited German, French help won't be forgotten

[bfp]

"As far as Germany and France are concerned, really, this was a regrettable position they had," Allawi said. "I don't think the Iraqis are going to forget easily that in the hour of need, those countries wanted to neglect Iraq."



http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/...ain/index.html

[johnny861]

The German government barely has enough capital to keep itself going, they are already making the EU nervous by exceeding their allowed borrowing cap and their proposed tax reform is going to first push them to the edge of defaulting before any good will come of it...

hmmmm

You are suggesting that Germany didn't help because they couldn't afford it? They were afraid of a national debt?

Why didn't they just say that in the first place?

[c double]

it won't be forgotten until the US leaves Iraq, then it's only a matter of time before the governing council and Iraqi people stab us in the back. IMO.

[johnny861]

Originally posted by xiannaix
hmmmm

You are suggesting that Germany didn't help because they couldn't afford it? They were afraid of a national debt?

Why didn't they just say that in the first place?

They are already struggling with the EU financially as it is.

Although, they did committ some troops to the coalition for afghanistan, it was limited by the fact they cannot financially support any larger missions. They have said this numerous times in the past.

Originally posted by bfp
"As far as Germany and France are concerned, really, this was a regrettable position they had," Allawi said. "I don't think the Iraqis are going to forget easily that in the hour of need, those countries wanted to neglect Iraq."



http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/...ain/index.html

So what... Do you really think that Germany and France will lose sleep over Iraqi's future grudge because they didn't pitch in money for something that is caused by a war that they didn't want in the first place?

What would you say, if the situation would be reversed? If Germany and France had invaded Iraq against the US's wish? Would you expect the American taxpayers to foot the bill in that scenario? I think not (I would love to hear the rants of people like you or Rush L, Bill O'R, Glenn Beck, Greg Knapp and the rest of the hypocritical gang, if the roles were reversed). Why should German and French taxpayers pay now?

Do you even have a clue how much the US is hated (and feared) among citizens of those countries right now? I recommend to talk to Europeans or read foreign media every now and then, if you believe that the world likes the USA. It is disturbing, how much the tide has turned against the USA in Europe. For example, Everybody (conservatives and progressives alike) I know in Austria (where I lived for 27 years) consider the Bush regime to be closer to Hitler's NAZI Germany than anything since 1945 (read some NAZI propaganda from the 1930ies and 1940ies - it is shocking how current that is, considering all that Dept. of Homeland Security crap - that whole fear shit was exactly what the NAZIs exploited (Heimatsicherheitsbuero etc - a literal translation of the Dept. of Homeland Security existed in NAZI Germany!!!) to get more and more power). To think that citizens of European countries, who abhor the US post-9/11, are obligated to pay for wars not backed by the UN is arrogant and nuts.

..Octo.

[johnny861]

Originally posted by octo

Do you even have a clue how much the US is hated (and feared) among citizens of those countries right now? I recommend to talk to Europeans or read foreign media every now and then, if you believe that the world likes the USA. It is disturbing, how much the tide has turned against the USA in Europe. For example, Everybody (conservatives and progressives alike) I know in Austria (where I lived for 27 years) consider the Bush regime to be closer to Hitler's NAZI Germany than anything since 1945 (read some NAZI propaganda from the 1930ies and 1940ies - it is shocking how current that is, considering all that Dept. of Homeland Security crap - that whole fear shit was exactly what the NAZIs exploited (Heimatsicherheitsbuero etc - a literal translation of the Dept. of Homeland Security existed in NAZI Germany!!!) to get more and more power). To think that citizens of European countries, who abhor the US post-9/11, are obligated to pay for wars not backed by the UN is arrogant and nuts.

..Octo.

The U.S. for the last century has always been in a situation of damned if they take action and damned if they don't...

This is nothing new, because of the Bush administration.

Yea, Austria should really be the one to speak when they have Schüssel's right-wing regime to deal with... but we won't spotlight and dissect each of Austria's problems...

You have no fucking clue about Austria's political landscape. Compared to the Republicans, Schuessel's OVP is a ultra-left liberal hippie club and its junior partner, the (diminished) FPO is somewhere left of the Republicans .
Besides, I have never, ever heard ultra-fascist crap like whats spouted on (Republican endorsed e.g"KLIF-the official Dept. of Homeland Security station") AM talk radio anywhere in Austria post 1980 (when I started to pay attention). IMO the 'right wing extremists' in Austria (FPO) are somewhere between the Democrats and the Republicans, if it is even possible to compare the two countries.
Not even speaking of Germany's government, which is so orthogonal in its ideology compared to the Bush administration, thats not even funny anymore.

[johnny861]

First off, Allawi speaks on behalf of the Iraqi provisional government, not the US.

I'm not quite for sure what political commentaries and the US have to do with Allawi's statement regarding Germany and France not contributing.

It sounds like you were looking for some excuse to dissect more of the US issues in this thread, rather than focusing on Allawi's statement and France and Germany's position.


You have no fucking clue about Austria's political landscape.


And you've been in Austria for 27 years, that must make you more than familiar with every facet of the American political landscape...

Originally posted by johnny861
First off, Allawi speaks on behalf of the Iraqi provisional government, not the US.

I'm not quite for sure what political commentaries and the US have to do with Allawi's statement regarding Germany and France not contributing.

Are you serious? You don't think that US politics are influencing Allawi's statements? Allawi speaks on behalf of the Iraqi provisional government, which is under heavy influence of the ones in power in Iraq at the moment, the USA.
Therefore Allawi's statements regaring Germany and France not contributing should be seen in the context of the dispute of Germany/France and the US over Iraq (pre-war and post-war).

Originally posted by johnny861
And you've been in Austria for 27 years, that must make you more than familiar with every facet of the American political landscape...

Well, I have lived in Dallas for approx. 6 years now and though I do not pretend to be familiar with every facet of the American political landscape, I am trying to understand it as much as I can.

Off Topic:
It just amazes me how Americans in 2003 can point to Austria's government and accuse it of being right wing, while believing that America's government is centered. A few examples (the 'hot' issues polarizing the two factions in the US):

Fiscal responsibility:
USA (Republican government) vs. Austria ('extreme right wing' OVP/FPO):

Deficit %GDP: USA: 4.7, Austria: 1.3
(USA: high deficit because of defense spending and tax cuts, Austria: much lower deficit; negligible defense expenses; 'communist' (in comparison) tax code; bulk of money goes to health care, pensions and social services).

Health care: USA: private matter; many poor uninsured, Austria: everybody is insured

Abortion: USA: legal, emotions run high, government aligned with anti-abortionists, Austria: legal, anti-abortion not on the 'agenda' of the 'extreme right' government.

Gay rights: USA: gay sex in private just made legal; Republicans regularly bashing gays publicly (Santorum, Scalia, Wamp etc.); Austria: last anti-gay law ended a few months ago (age of consent was different (16 hetero, 18 homo)); OVP doesn't want gay rights (catholic affiliation) - no verbal gay bashing by any politician that I know of, 'extreme right wing' FPO has not anti-gay agenda, in fact there are equal rights voices within this party.

Separation of Church and State:
USA: Constitutionally 'guaranteed'. In practice, minority religions must accept that Judeo-Christianity has preference ('In God We Trust', 'God bless America' (does a Hindu or Buddhist agree?), the pledge), federal and state elections held on church property (really amazing...). Austria: Contract with the Vatican, weak separation, (elective) religion classes in school, virtually no God references in politics.

Unions: USA: In the eye of Republicans, Unions are of Satan . Austria: Unions accepted broadly.

Guns: USA: Republicans/NRA; Austria: gun control similar to Canada.

Education: USA: tuition based system; Austria: Free until University; $500/semester for University.

Immigration: USA: hostile climate against illegal immigration; contrary to public perception, legal immigration is a colossal heap of red tape with really long waiting times (several years for most categories to become permanent resident, not even speaking of citizenship). Deportation possible (and happens) because of technicalities like forgotten to file change of address with USCIS (former INS). Austria: similar to the USA (hostile against illegals, red tape). Deportation only for rather severe crimes (not because of technicalities).

Drugs: USA: harsh penalties (jail for possession of drugs for private consumption), Austria: mild punishment for the same offense (no jail time for private use of drugs)

I honestly do not know of any ideological and political position where Austria or any other European country is farther right than the current Bush administration.

That said, this list is only to hightlight that the right wing label for Austria is non-sense when coming from an American who thinks that the USA is not. This was not a value judgement, so please don't tell me to go back to Austria, if I don't like it here. There are plenty of things where the US is far superior than Austria (like Diversity, Opportunities, Weather, Business etc.), otherwise I would have packed my stuff and left already.

[johnny861]

I never made the statement that the USA wasn't right...


You are right, as of now, it is not centered and there are a lot of domestic issues I strongly disagree with, such as the administration's opposition to Gay Marriage.


However, trying to loosely associate the present administration to the NSDAP is just going to excite the conspiracy theorists on this board. There is no Fourth Reich conspiracy.

Originally posted by johnny861
They are already struggling with the EU financially as it is.

Although, they did committ some troops to the coalition for afghanistan, it was limited by the fact they cannot financially support any larger missions. They have said this numerous times in the past.

So Germany is unwilling to make the financial or personel commitment to eliminating a cruel dictator and establishing a fair and representative Iraqi Gov't - this has nothing to do with leverage from France and Russia who've chosen to invest heavily with Sadam but refuse to do so in a post Sadam Iraq?

[johnny861]

Originally posted by xiannaix
So Germany is unwilling to make the financial or personel commitment to eliminating a cruel dictator and establishing a fair and representative Iraqi Gov't - this has nothing to do with leverage from France and Russia who've chosen to invest heavily with Sadam but refuse to do so in a post Sadam Iraq?

Germany is busy concentrating its own interests with the EU. This was apparent before the Iraq war ever started. They said no to the war and stuck to this opinion out of principle, but mentioned if they did support the war, their role would be limited at best.

France and Russia, on the other hand, had much to lose with Saddam out of power. However, I do not see France and Russia's new relationship leveraging Germany's position on the matter. If anything, Germany may view this as a potential rift between France and the EU's diplomatic interests.

[bfp]

You know what also will not be forgotten?

The so-far uncounted number of Iraqi civilians who died in the invasion.

how about the uncounted number of iraqi civilians that were killed under saddam's control? we are presently uncovering mass-grave after mass-grave of hundreds of thousands of iraqi's killed under his power. it seems those death's have been forgotten as well?

warlord your inadequate capabilty to come up with an argument that makes even the smallest ammount sense has indeed fallen short, yet again. in my opinion you're no different than mr. goebbels himself. what one-sided nonsense.

[bfp]

I never disputed that, but the increasing number of attacks on coalition targets and forces, as evidenced by yesterday's seemingly coordinated attacks on the El Rashid Hotel, where Under-Sec. of Defense Wolfowitz was staying, and several other key targets indicates an clandestine operation with an infrastructure and lines of communication.

We lost in Viet Nam as much due to the hostility of the population as we did tactical blunders, which were numerous. What we've done in Iraq is create a new group of people who may not actively oppose the U.S. occupation, but may be more than willing to turn a blind eye to any resistance forces or efforts.

its been obvious for quite some time now that there are networks with infrastructure using sofisticated techniques to attack us. we expected terrorists to come across the border, some to work with the fallen regime. but if you expect to accomplish anything over there you have to stay the course. if we draw our forces back like we have in the past, we are in for a world of hurt in the future. how do you know what kind of opposing figure's we've created in iraq? it's all speculation at this point. it seems to me its saddam loyalist's that are attacking us at this point. and some figure's from ansar-al-islam. this bombing yesterday was'nt the work of random baathist supporter's off the street's spawned from our occupation, as you seem to think.