what now?

[Dionysos]

I was going to reply in a different thread, but I feel like this deserves its own thread. This question is specifically for the detractors on the war on terrorism. There are US soldiers rebuilding Iraq & chasing Taliban & Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan. Homeland security is - for all intents and purposes - in place. For the sake of argument let's say you had a meeting with the Bush administration and were able to layout your plan for the future regarding terrorism. Standing at this point right now, how would you tell them to proceed?

I ask because I've seen a lot of people(not just here mind you) that criticize the steps taken in the war on terrorism, but I have seen very few mention alternatives. This is your chance to speak up and give other courses of action, and I'd like to hear them.

EDIT: As a secondary question, what do you think the effects of your plan will be? Specifically, do you think they will stem the tide of terrorist acts? If not, is there anything that will?

[johnny861]

(satire)

I'm sure a couple of people in here would suggest pulling out our interests and embassy's across the world and drop apology roses on steps of all the terrorists cells across the planet.


Then undo all the laws in questionable violation of privacy, remove all intel from the field and forgo profiling, but yet at the same time just psychically know who is bad and who isn't, but most likely that itself is a violation of privacy... so some how the people in question will be caught... details of how this will happen are totally ambiguous as any effort would violate a freedom...


We'll also assume that our new far left stance will trigger some rationale from all these hard-line far right regimes and terrorists groups and that they will cease all terrorist activities against the USA.

Oil? No longer an issue, because we won't secure our interests, but some how, we'll manage to still have supply that more than meets demand and the prices will drop, details also ambiguous...

Nobody will know exactly how these leftist miracles will work as the left have given no recommendations on exactly how to address many of these issues, without ignoring all the reprecautions involved....

[Adam D]

I would begin by inviting a nationwide dialogue on the subject, led by experts on terrorism and the Middle East. While this dialogue is developing alternative plans, I would recommend public announcement of the end of military aid to Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, Russia and any other nation which engages in terrorism either by proxy by sponsoring or funding terrorists, or by directing terrorizing their own populations. I would also recommend the public announcement of the termination of all aid to Israel until the Israeli government ceases the apartheid and resolves a peaceful, two state solution. The US would initiate a UN resolution condemning Israel. The US would cease all heavy handed economic influence and allow the development of the region as the people of the region see fit. The US would also remove all military installations unless requested by the states in which these installations exist to do otherwise. The US would also terminate all terror sponsoring and regime sponsoring in Latin America and Southeast Asia. The US would condemn tyrranical governments, the bloodshed in East Timor, and across Latin America. The US will formally apologize for its terror sponsoring and violations of the basic sovereignty of other peoples.

Then the concepts developed in the dialogue would be discussed with other parts of the world through both formal and low level diplomacy to develop lasting solutions.

Originally posted by Adam D
I would begin by inviting a nationwide dialogue on the subject, led by experts on terrorism and the Middle East. While this dialogue is developing alternative plans, I would recommend public announcement of the end of military aid to Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, Russia and any other nation which engages in terrorism either by proxy by sponsoring or funding terrorists, or by directing terrorizing their own populations. I would also recommend the public announcement of the termination of all aid to Israel until the Israeli government ceases the apartheid and resolves a peaceful, two state solution. The US would initiate a UN resolution condemning Israel. The US would cease all heavy handed economic influence and allow the development of the region as the people of the region see fit. The US would also remove all military installations unless requested by the states in which these installations exist to do otherwise. The US would also terminate all terror sponsoring and regime sponsoring in Latin America and Southeast Asia. The US would condemn tyrranical governments, the bloodshed in East Timor, and across Latin America. The US will formally apologize for its terror sponsoring and violations of the basic sovereignty of other peoples.

Then the concepts developed in the dialogue would be discussed with other parts of the world through both formal and low level diplomacy to develop lasting solutions.

good call.

maybe also sealing off our border would help "keep us safe"

you know it must be that we seem really stupid.

war on terrorism, yes homeland security is in place, thats why that kid put those box cutters on the plane right?

maybe thats why 1 million people a year are still comming over our border, but not to worry, they couldn't be terrorists.

hey maybe in the tons of drugs that make it over the border, just maybe there is a pound of anthrax.

please, if anyone was to tell me to my face that we are winning the war on terrorism, or that homeland security is doing it's job, or god forbid, that we are safe,

anybody that says some bullshit like that to my face gets fucking slaped for being a moron.

There are US soldiers rebuilding Iraq

cause everyday someone is blowing shit up

chasing Taliban & Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan.

yes and then catching them, letting them be watched over by their 2nd cousin, and then we get news story's that read.40 taliban escape for prison, five gaurds missing also.

meanwhile the bumper crop of heroin seems to fly under the radar, right up into the ghetto over here.

wonder what non-military guy is flying over there and picking that shit up.

Homeland security is - for all intents and purposes - in place.

right, see how they stopped that kid from putting box cutters on the planes? fucking smooth, those homeland guys are on top of shit.

how fucking stupid do you think people are?

there are HUNDREDS of chemical plants still left wide open, hundreds of thousands of people(maybe even terrorists) crossing our border, tons of white powder that could be anthrax also crossing our border.

if thats your ideal of a good job, i'd love to work for you.

For the sake of argument let's say you had a meeting with the Bush administration and were able to layout your plan for the future regarding terrorism. Standing at this point right now, how would you tell them to proceed?

first, i'd tell them to lose bush and all the fucking pnacers around him, then i would start on what adam said, cut all funding to israel is number one.

number 2 is to let these people live like they have for 5 thousand years before we became to smart for their own good.

i mean really, it's like saying well, i know you guys have been here forever and things have been working fine for you, but being around for a split second, we must know whats best for you.

[Dionysos]

Originally posted by superkool
right, see how they stopped that kid from putting box cutters on the planes? fucking smooth, those homeland guys are on top of shit.

how fucking stupid do you think people are?

there are HUNDREDS of chemical plants still left wide open, hundreds of thousands of people(maybe even terrorists) crossing our border, tons of white powder that could be anthrax also crossing our border.

if thats your ideal of a good job, i'd love to work for you.

You mistake my saying Homeland Security being in place for thinking I'm saying that they're finished. I never said they were done securing America, or that they ever would be for that matter. I also never said that they were doing a good job, merely that the organization known as Homeland Security has been formed. I mentioned the department as a pretext for asking what people here think should be done next and how an organization such as HS should be employed. But by all means, keeping intoning meaning where there is none.

[Dionysos]

Originally posted by Adam D
I would begin by inviting a nationwide dialogue on the subject, led by experts on terrorism and the Middle East. While this dialogue is developing alternative plans, I would recommend public announcement of the end of military aid to Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, Russia and any other nation which engages in terrorism either by proxy by sponsoring or funding terrorists, or by directing terrorizing their own populations. I would also recommend the public announcement of the termination of all aid to Israel until the Israeli government ceases the apartheid and resolves a peaceful, two state solution. The US would initiate a UN resolution condemning Israel. The US would cease all heavy handed economic influence and allow the development of the region as the people of the region see fit. The US would also remove all military installations unless requested by the states in which these installations exist to do otherwise. The US would also terminate all terror sponsoring and regime sponsoring in Latin America and Southeast Asia. The US would condemn tyrranical governments, the bloodshed in East Timor, and across Latin America. The US will formally apologize for its terror sponsoring and violations of the basic sovereignty of other peoples.

Then the concepts developed in the dialogue would be discussed with other parts of the world through both formal and low level diplomacy to develop lasting solutions.

And what do you think the effects would be of all these actions?

in a fantasy world, we'd be singing kum bah ya in a week.
but heres my practicable solution for the real world.

1)impeach bush and the collaboratiors for falsifying evidence for war, to start.
2)reduce the heavy handed tactics we have been using in Iraq and Afghanistan. Use more CIA operations and special forces to do pinpoint strikes against known terrorist cells and camps, whether or not the country they exist in knows or condones of our operations there.
3)amend the exexutive order preventing political assasinations to allow it in cases of clear and present danger to the safety of american interests.
4)begin a cultural exchange and education program with terrorist producing nations. this program would teach them that not all americans are infidels and evil, and the same would be taught to us, this would include peace corps like activities that would be secular, and regulated in a similar way. no overt activities that would offend the host countries culture.
5)create trade programs to allow muslim countries to develop thier own industries and services that american and western corporations take a majority in. this would reduce "unwanted and corrupting" western influences.
6)reduce our visibility in our support of israel. also offer to mediate another peace settlement in a camp david style. a dialouge hosted by the united states that is arbitrary and non-biased.
7)reduce our military presence in the middle east to only countries that gladly would have us present, such as Kuwait.
8)reduce our dependance on foriegn energy sources, encourage alternatives to oil through tax breaks and subsidies.
9)a domestic program that would educate americans on the true muslim culture, not the one of the terrorists.
10)end major support of terrorist supporting nations that we have kept under our umbrella since the cold war. reduce it to merely economic support of their domestic industries, and push for a regime change through only diplomatic pressure.


thats my practical real world solution. no buy the world a coke scenario, but it would make a small difference.

[johnny861]

Originally posted by Dropzone
in a fantasy world, we'd be singing kum bah ya in a week.
but heres my practicable solution for the real world.

1)impeach bush and the collaboratiors for falsifying evidence for war, to start.
2)reduce the heavy handed tactics we have been using in Iraq and Afghanistan. Use more CIA operations and special forces to do pinpoint strikes against known terrorist cells and camps, whether or not the country they exist in knows or condones of our operations there.
3)amend the exexutive order preventing political assasinations to allow it in cases of clear and present danger to the safety of american interests.
4)begin a cultural exchange and education program with terrorist producing nations. this program would teach them that not all americans are infidels and evil, and the same would be taught to us, this would include peace corps like activities that would be secular, and regulated in a similar way. no overt activities that would offend the host countries culture.
5)create trade programs to allow muslim countries to develop thier own industries and services that american and western corporations take a majority in. this would reduce "unwanted and corrupting" western influences.
6)reduce our visibility in our support of israel. also offer to mediate another peace settlement in a camp david style. a dialouge hosted by the united states that is arbitrary and non-biased.
7)reduce our military presence in the middle east to only countries that gladly would have us present, such as Kuwait.
8)reduce our dependance on foriegn energy sources, encourage alternatives to oil through tax breaks and subsidies.
9)a domestic program that would educate americans on the true muslim culture, not the one of the terrorists.
10)end major support of terrorist supporting nations that we have kept under our umbrella since the cold war. reduce it to merely economic support of their domestic industries, and push for a regime change through only diplomatic pressure.


thats my practical real world solution. no buy the world a coke scenario, but it would make a small difference.

I would definitely agree with most of this

[Adam D]

Originally posted by RosebudProd
And what do you think the effects would be of all these actions?

Decreased terror, more democracy, less poverty and oppression and a more competitive world economy.

[Dionysos]

Originally posted by Adam D
Decreased terror, more democracy, less poverty and oppression and a more competitive world economy.

Well obviously.

Maybe I should be more clear in my question. I'm interested in how you think specific countries would react, i.e. militarily, economically, diplomatically.

[c double]

i don't have the time or interest to write the ten thousand words and do three weeks of thinking, so the only thing i have to say is...
isolationism.
won't happen though.

Originally posted by c double
i don't have the time or interest to write the ten thousand words and do three weeks of thinking, so the only thing i have to say is...
isolationism.
won't happen though.

Isolationism?

you can accomplish that on your own - Kaczinski did it for years - and the Amish/Mennonite etc for generations

As for the US - - we couldn't if we tried.

Japan - Peary - ring a bell?

I think most on this board would point the finger at The United States, and its foreign policy, and Israel for all the evil in the world.
What this country stands for is what makes us a target, not Bush not Sharon.

[Adam D]

Originally posted by JohnDavid
I think most on this board would point the finger at The United States, and its foreign policy, and Israel for all the evil in the world.
What this country stands for is what makes us a target, not Bush not Sharon.

Only if you mean we stand for violence and aggression.