Just so we are all clear...

[johnny861]

Fascism

1. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.

2. Oppressive, dictatorial control.


So stop with the hippy talk.. not everybody is a fascist...

if somebody has a different opinion than you and voice it, they are not instantly a nazi.. that's called their freedom of opinion...

now, if they beat you up, make your family disappear. shoot your dog and rape your girlfriend, because you disagree with their opinion, then you can call them a facist.

[Adam D]

You can take the second definition and apply it to the economic arena.

oh god.....great argument dude

so simply put....why don't look a little deeper....oh thats why....

you see every thing so clearly

[bfp]

Originally posted by Adam D
You can take the second definition and apply it to the economic arena.

Do explain.

[Adam D]

Originally posted by bfp
Do explain.

Well, you can have fascism, or any other sort of ideology run through any and every part of your life. We've been taught in schools that they are exclusively political ideologies, but just like the government, it's existence permeates all society.

[bfp]

Originally posted by Adam D
Well, you can have fascism, or any other sort of ideology run through any and every part of your life. We've been taught in schools that they are exclusively political ideologies, but just like the government, it's existence permeates all society.

The economic structure we have today is not fascist. No one controls what you buy, what you eat, what you should buy, etc. It's all voluntary transactions.

The same can be said with where one works.

[Adam D]

Originally posted by bfp
The economic structure we have today is not fascist. No one controls what you buy, what you eat, what you should buy, etc. It's all voluntary transactions.

That's not what's meant. Under a fascist government, nobody tells you that you can't eat some corn flakes.

We're talking about the power structure of the economy.

Under whatever definition you'd like to choose....

I do not see the United States as exhibiting fascist qualities like Nazi Germany or Italy under Il Duce or Spain etc etc

[Adam D]

Originally posted by xiannaix
Under whatever definition you'd like to choose....

I do not see the United States as exhibiting fascist qualities like Nazi Germany or Italy under Il Duce or Spain etc etc

What does a fascist political system look like?

Centralized authority with no public voice in government with belligerent nationalism.

What does a fascist economic system look like?

Centralized authority with no employee voice in decisionmaking, with belligerent anti-labor disposition.


What does our economic system look like?

Centralized authority with no employee voice in decisionmaking, with belligerent anti-labor disposition.

Originally posted by Adam D
What does a fascist political system look like?

Centralized authority with no public voice in government with belligerent nationalism.

What does a fascist economic system look like?

Centralized authority with no employee voice in decisionmaking, with belligerent anti-labor disposition.


What does our economic system look like?

Centralized authority with no employee voice in decisionmaking, with belligerent anti-labor disposition.

Politcally - we have elections.....on many levels....we do not have a fascist system Adam - not even close.

Economically - OK Adam - I'll agree to disagree with you again.... I know you'd prefer to see a socialist workers collective and that scares me lots.....

We've been over this and over this..... owners get to make decisions for their businesses - because they own them - because they took the risk to build them etc etc etc

[bfp]

If anything, FDR's 'New Deal' is what completely crashed our economic system. Well, it all started in 1913 with the 'income tax'.. But he then created the New Deal to seek full gov't control of money. He sought for congress to nationalize everyones gold as well.



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The Social Security Act, FDIC, the Agricultural Adjustment Act, the Emergency Banking Relief Act the Tennessee Valley Authority, the Federal Securities Act, and the National Labor Relations Act came into existence — all with the aim of taking control of people's lives as well as absolving them from responsibility for errors and foolhardiness by giving them the political loot that had been stolen from others.

But all of this was not sufficient for FDR. He persuaded Congress to provide him a power which Stalin and Mussolini proudly possessed: the repudiation of government debts payable in gold — the noteholders, most of whom were Americans who had in good faith trusted their government, were instead paid in devalued paper money.

[Adam D]

Originally posted by xiannaix
Politcally - we have elections.....on many levels....we do not have a fascist system Adam - not even close.

Economically - OK Adam - I'll agree to disagree with you again.... I know you'd prefer to see a socialist workers collective and that scares me lots.....

We've been over this and over this..... owners get to make decisions for their businesses - because they own them - because they took the risk to build them etc etc etc

I don't know that I would want to see a single workers collective.

I realize that capitalism says it's the proper thing to do. I don't think it's right, because it reinforces social stratification and oppression.

Hell, it's really not even a good business model. If you look at companies where there is harsh control from above, low pay, and low benefits, profits margins are typically low and/or administrative costs are high. Why? Because the workers don't feel respected, and the executives and owners don't really understand the nuances that result in higher administrative costs.

On the otherhand, you look at companies that pay fair, offer good benefits, and allow employees a voice in decisionmaking and in the operation of the company, and profit margins are typically high with falling administrative costs. Why? Because employees feel respected, and you get a more diverse understanding of the company and how to improve it.

[Adam D]

Originally posted by bfp
If anything, FDR's 'New Deal' is what completely crashed our economic system. Well, it all started in 1913 with the 'income tax'.. But he then created the New Deal to seek full gov't control of money. He sought for congress to nationalize everyones gold as well.

So what was the answer to the depression? Tax cuts for the wealthy?

Originally posted by Adam D
I don't know that I would want to see a single workers collective.

I realize that capitalism says it's the proper thing to do. I don't think it's right, because it reinforces social stratification and oppression.

Hell, it's really not even a good business model. If you look at companies where there is harsh control from above, low pay, and low benefits, profits margins are typically low and/or administrative costs are high. Why? Because the workers don't feel respected, and the executives and owners don't really understand the nuances that result in higher administrative costs.

On the otherhand, you look at companies that pay fair, offer good benefits, and allow employees a voice in decisionmaking and in the operation of the company, and profit margins are typically high with falling administrative costs. Why? Because employees feel respected, and you get a more diverse understanding of the company and how to improve it.

I don't agree that capitalism is a bad business model - I would agree that socialism creates bad ones.....to site a Soviet Example - they used to fly frozen fish great distances to create work at the cannaries on the Aral Sea (which the Soviets dried up)


The company examples you site - may be getting the cart in front of the horse. A healthy business can afford to treat its employees well and I do agree that if a company can - it should - for the reasons you note. What I abhor is the notion that they'd be compelled to do so.

[johnny861]

Originally posted by Adam D
What does a fascist political system look like?



What does our economic system look like?

Centralized authority with no employee voice in decisionmaking, with belligerent anti-labor disposition.

I dunno If I want the mail room guy making executive decisions, but maybe that is just from what I've seen with companies I've worked at...

they are trying something similar in many companies including my own... it's called servant leadership coupled with open book management...

We have still seen no executive actions from the mail room yet, except when the mail room manager attacked an accountant with a pair of scissors and was ultimately let go... (true story)