just wondering if you guys had seen this: Censure Bush

[Eminent]

> During the buildup to war, President Bush said the United States "must
> not ignore the threat gathering against us. Facing clear evidence of
> peril, we cannot wait for the final proof -- the smoking gun -- that
> could come in the form of a mushroom cloud.... We have every reason to
> assume the worst, and we have an urgent duty to prevent the worst from
> occurring." [1]
>
> On the eve of sending troops into battle, Bush asserted that
> "Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt
> that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most
> lethal weapons ever devised." [2]
>
> Now David Kay, the CIA?s chief weapons inspector, has testified before
> Congress that these weapons do not exist.
>
> In an attempt to evade responsibility for the misleading statements
> that pushed the nation into war, Bush has announced plans to form an
> independent inquiry to look into what went wrong. An inquiry would
> serve the Bush administration well: it would envelop the issue in a
> fog of uncertainty, deflect blame onto the intelligence services, and
> delay any political damage until 2005, after the upcoming election.
> [3]
>
> But the facts need no clarification. Despite repeated warnings from
> the CIA and Defense Intelligence Agency, President Bush and his
> administration hyped and distorted the threat that Iraq posed. [4]
> And now that reality is setting in, the President wants to pin the
> blame on someone else. We can't let him.
>
> Congress has the power to censure the President -- to formally
> reprimand him for betraying the nation's trust. If ever there was a
> time for this, it's now. Join our call on Congress to censure
> President Bush at:
>
>
>
http://www.moveon.org/censure/?id=22...TWIA9CiAn4IAwQ
>
> It's clear that we've been mislead:
>
> * David Kay said last week, "I'm personally convinced that there were
> not large stockpiles of newly produced weapons of mass destruction,"
> and "We don't find the people, the documents or the physical plants
> that you would expect to find if the production was going on." Kay
> said these things shortly after resigning from his post as Bush's
> chief weapons inspector in Iraq. [5]
>
> * Bush, in his 2003 State of the Union address, said, "the British
> government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant
> quantities of uranium from Africa." [6] Yet Ambassador Joe Wilson, who
> was sent to Niger in February 2002 to determine whether Iraq was
> trying to purchase uranium materials there, concluded that
> "intelligence related to Iraq's nuclear weapons program was twisted to
> exaggerate the Iraqi threat." [7]
>
> * A CIA report in February 2003 said: "We do not have any direct
> evidence that Iraq has used the period since [1998] to reconstitute
> its Weapons of Mass Destruction programs." [8]
>
> It's also clear that the misleading was deliberate:
>
> * The respected Carnegie Endowment for International Peace recently
> found that the administration "systematically misrepresented the
> threat" from Iraq. [9]
>
> * The basis for President Bush's African uranium claim was known at
> the time to be forged [10] and not credible. "Top White House
> officials knew that the CIA seriously disputed the claim that Saddam
> Hussein was seeking uranium in Africa long before the claim was
> included in Bush's January address to the nation," according to the
> Washington Post. [11]
>
> * Secretary of State Colin Powell became alarmed at the level of
> intelligence distortion. When he read the first draft of his speech
> to the UN -- prepared for Powell by Vice President Dick Cheney's chief
> of staff -- he was so upset that he lost his temper, throwing several
> pages in the air and declaring, "I'm not reading this. This is
> bullsh--." [12]
>
> Our democracy only works when we know the truth. We now know
> President Bush and his administration deliberately misled Congress and
> the American people. Censure is the least we should expect in
> response.
>
> The independent inquiry will need a year or more to come to a
> conclusion, according to the Bush administration. It took less time
> than that for the country to go to war. We don't need more
> investigation, we need accountability, and we need it now.
>
> Join our call on Congress to censure President Bush at:
>
>
>
http://www.moveon.org/censure/?id=22...TWIA9CiAn4IAwQ
>
> We'll be holding a press conference in Washington on Thursday,
> announcing our campaign for Censure. If you sign on now, we can count
> your signature at the press conference. Please sign on right away.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> --Adam, Carrie, Eli, James, Joan, Laura, Noah, Peter, Wes, and Zack
> The MoveOn.org Team
> Tuesday, February 3, 2004
>
> [1]
>
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Jan27.html
>
> [2]
>
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0030317-7.html
>
> [3]
>
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2004Feb1.html
>
> [4] An excellent, comprehensive rundown on the Bush administration's
> deliberate distortion of intelligence is available at:
>
>
http://www.americanprogress.org/site...RJ8OVF&b=24889
>
> [5]
>
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/26/in...ast/26KAY.html
>
> [6]
>
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...030128-19.html
>
> [7] http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/06/opinion/06WILS.html
> Note: Wilson's wife, Valerie Plame, had her CIA cover blown,
> possibly by the White House, in apparent retaliation for Wilson's
> contradicting the White House's line on WMDs.
>
> [8] http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3340723/
>
> [9] http://www.ceip.org/files/pdf/Iraq3G...nd_SummRec.pdf
>
>
> [10]
>
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/08/in...al/08PREX.html
>
> [11] http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald...on/6362092.htm
>
> [12]
>
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/a...0609040506.php

[bfp]

What D Kay also said was that there were also potential buyers and sellers of weapons information. No matter how you slice it the people that possessed this information would eventually hit cross-roads with potential buyers.


----------------


KAY: I think Iraq was a dangerous place becoming more dangerous, because, in fact, what we observe is that the regime itself was coming apart. It was descending into worse the part of moral depravity and corruption. Saddam was isolated in a fantasy land capable of wreaking tremendous harm and terror on his individual citizens, but corruption, money gain was the root cause.

At the same time that we know there were terrorist groups in state still seeking WMD capability. Iraq, although I found no weapons, had tremendous capabilities in this area. A marketplace phenomena was about to occur, if it did not occur; sellers meeting buyers. And I think that would have been very dangerous if the war had not intervened.

WALLACE: But what could the sellers have sold, if they didn't have actual weapons?

KAY: The knowledge of how to make them, the knowledge of how to make small amounts, which is, after all, mostly what terrorists wants. They don't battlefield amounts of weapons.

No, Iraq remained a very dangerous place in terms of WMD capabilities, even though we found no large stockpiles of weapons.

[johnny861]

I find bush's statements to be quite interesting and shows him to have not really lied to the public


Let's look at this for a moment...


During the buildup to war, President Bush said the United States "must not ignore the threat gathering against us. Facing clear evidence of peril, we cannot wait for the final proof -- the smoking gun -- that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud.... We have every reason to assume the worst, and we have an urgent duty to prevent the worst from occurring."



evidence collected over the last 12 years from 2nd and 3rd hand intelligence sources, because our own agencies were restricted from having their own agents in the field collecting evidence for themselves... so what do we truly have to rely on... a couple of fuzzy sattilite photos and a couple of guys named mohommad to tell us this shit exists... Are these sources double agents? hard to tell... could saddam have been funding counter-intelligence to hold a bluff against the USA? the motives are there not just for saddam, but for a number of countries itching to get exlcusive oil contracts from Iraq, while keeping the usa out of it...
there could be a number of attempts at fowl play in the realm of intelligence and who do we check it? what... more third party intel?

so basically, we've got our administration looking at mounting evidence with no sure fire way of validating it... for all they know.. possible nukes... well shit... that sounds scary as fuck to me... what should we do?


>
> On the eve of sending troops into battle, Bush asserted that
> "Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt
> that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most
> lethal weapons ever devised." [2]


you tell me... was our intelligence reliable?

I'm an ok chess player, but I'd rather look at the pieces myself before making a move, rather than being stuck having someone else look at the pieces and me trusting their judgement before moving...

I can't say I am a proponant of the war entirely on the issue of WMD, but I can see where we went horribly wrong and what we should have done to correct it... we should have reformed our intelligence community first... and btw... we should have forced the cia director to resign after this iraq blunder... which we have not done...

[Adam D]

You can download plans for building and obtaining all kinds of WMDs. I once heard that you could actually download the plans for a nuclear bomb, but I can't confirm that.

I guess we should go to war with the internet.

[SatanHatesPlur]

I think they had it come out exactly how they wanted it. We wanted Saddam Hussein gone. Boom. We wanted to show the world who is boss. Boom.
There are thousands of reasons you will never know of why we went there. It doesn't matter. Do you really feel sorry for the Iraqis? Stop trying to be so PC and stop lying to yourself. Poor, Poor Iraq. They didn't weapons of mass destruction. Whoopdeedoo. They were a thorn in our side. All those people that say we had no right to go over there? I am sure that you have justified doing something not exactly stellar for the greater good. Hell, I am justifying why I should drink my roommates liquor right now. It may not be right, and he might not like it, but I will be drunk and thats all that counts. Justified.
You might read all these newspaper articles but in fact, you will probably never ever know what is really going on. I would venture you get a very small percent actual fact out of a reporters biased story. What makes the story interesting? Thats up to them. They can make you feel any way they want you to. I don't claim I know anything about what sinister acts are really going on, but I don't care.

So they had to break a couple of eggs..... but its a damn good omelette.

[Krash]

Originally posted by SatanHatesPlur
Do you really feel sorry for the Iraqis?

Yes, I do.

In fact, and you can take as much offense to this as you like, I feel more sorry for them than I do the victims of any other terrorist attack in the last 20 years.

[Adam D]

Originally posted by SatanHatesPlur
I think they had it come out exactly how they wanted it. We wanted Saddam Hussein gone. Boom. We wanted to show the world who is boss. Boom.
There are thousands of reasons you will never know of why we went there. It doesn't matter.

Why doesn't it matter?

Do you really feel sorry for the Iraqis? Stop trying to be so PC and stop lying to yourself. Poor, Poor Iraq.

Should we then not feel sorry for the victims of 9/11?

They didn't weapons of mass destruction. Whoopdeedoo. They were a thorn in our side.

So anytime somebody is a thorn in our side we should go to war?

All those people that say we had no right to go over there? I am sure that you have justified doing something not exactly stellar for the greater good.

What if there is no greater good? You're presupposing that the reason the US attacked Iraq was for the "greater good". I thought you said we don't know why war was waged.

Hell, I am justifying why I should drink my roommates liquor right now. It may not be right, and he might not like it, but I will be drunk and thats all that counts. Justified.

Some roommate.

You might read all these newspaper articles but in fact, you will probably never ever know what is really going on. I would venture you get a very small percent actual fact out of a reporters biased story. What makes the story interesting? Thats up to them. They can make you feel any way they want you to. I don't claim I know anything about what sinister acts are really going on, but I don't care.

Why don't you care?

It seems to me that you have no desire to venture outside of mainstream media and find out what's really going on. At that level, you can't claim that anything was or was not done for the "greater good".

So they had to break a couple of eggs..... but its a damn good omelette.

We'll see.

[Adam D]

Originally posted by Krash
Yes, I do.

In fact, and you can take as much offense to this as you like, I feel more sorry for them than I do the victims of any other terrorist attack in the last 20 years.

Indeed.

[SatanHatesPlur]

It doesn't bother me at all. You can't offend me.

But as you know. Their religion tells them to hate and destroy all other religions. They are praised for blowing themselves up. I praise them too, I wish all of them would blow themselves up.

Anyway, Old Yellar was a good dog. But that biatch got the sickness so we had to blast him. Maybe we didn't know Yellar had rabies for sure, but we didn't want to find out. It sucks hurting a defenseless animal, but when the animal keeps showing its fangs and flying planes into the doghouse. You got to break out the good wood. I never said feel sorry for poor America, but we can roll with the punches. Just try and stop us.

[johnny861]

Originally posted by SatanHatesPlur
Maybe we didn't know Yellar had rabies for sure, but we didn't want to find out. It sucks hurting a defenseless animal, but when the animal keeps showing its fangs and flying planes into the doghouse.

lol sorry, I know there's supposed to be a serious tone to this, but that was pretty damned funny...

[Adam D]

Originally posted by SatanHatesPlur
It doesn't bother me at all. You can't offend me.

But as you know. Their religion tells them to hate and destroy all other religions. They are praised for blowing themselves up. I praise them too, I wish all of them would blow themselves up.

Anyway, Old Yellar was a good dog. But that biatch got the sickness so we had to blast him. Maybe we didn't know Yellar had rabies for sure, but we didn't want to find out. It sucks hurting a defenseless animal, but when the animal keeps showing its fangs and flying planes into the doghouse. You got to break out the good wood. I never said feel sorry for poor America, but we can roll with the punches. Just try and stop us.

Well, someday somebody will, especially as long as there are people like you who see violence as something of no consequence, have blind media-fed views, and no sense of community except for yourself.

It must suck living your life blindly following what other people tell you. Maybe someday you'll have a thought that is all your own.

[johnny861]

Originally posted by Adam D

It must suck living your life blindly following what other people tell you. Maybe someday you'll have a thought that is all your own.

Well.. some people do insist that ignorance is bliss...

[Adam D]

Originally posted by johnny861
Well.. some people do insist that ignorance is bliss...

unless you suspect they have rabies and have to get out the "good wood".

[SatanHatesPlur]

Why doesn't it matter?

I am only speaking for myself. But the outcome is the same regardless.

Should we then not feel sorry for the victims of 9/11?

You have a good point on that one. But I always root for the hometeam. I am sure you can understand.

So anytime somebody is a thorn in our side we should go to war?

When they are threatening our way of life. Yes. Including Harboring Terrorists for one.

What if there is no greater good? You're presupposing that the reason the US attacked Iraq was for the "greater good". I thought you said we don't know why war was waged.

I said we don't know the whole truth, we just know the gist of it. We all have our idea of what the greater good is, I think most of us can agree though, we shouldn't tolerate terror and that just for starters.

Some roommate.

Just an analogy, but he is a rather cool chap.

Why don't you care?

I am more concerned on what I am eating for dinner. There is no fault in that.
But how does one venture outside mainstream media? The Internet? The newspaper? Uncles Crazy 'Nams Guide to whats really going on.com? Everything is mainstream in my eyes unless you yourself hack the CIA mainframe. I could give you many reasons, I can find the greater good in this, but I am sure you can figure them out yourself as you jump in your new car, going to your good paying job to make money, to return to your fancy apartment.

[SatanHatesPlur]

It must suck living your life blindly following what other people tell you. Maybe someday you'll have a thought that is all your own.

I see we have turned to personal attacks. So be it.