Ministers barred from school lunch time

[Keith P]

I personally agree with this move. When I attended high school I used to see all the young life freaks walking around and talking to the students. Never once did I encounter someone from a gay rights organization etc. etc.
If these religious fanatics are to be allowed into our schools then the rest of the lot should've had the opportunity to address and talk to students. Let alone noone from the outside was ever allowed to come join students for lunch. They shouldn't make exceptions for people from religious organizations

http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/02....ap/index.html

SHEPHERDSVILLE, Kentucky (AP) -- Ronald Shaver has lost his daily lunch appointment.

For 17 years, he and other Baptist ministers have been meeting with Bullitt County public school students during their lunch breaks. But school officials in this county south of Louisville now say those meetings are no longer allowed during the school day, a decision that has prompted protests from church members and a call to pack next week's school board meeting.

The dispute started last month when ministers of Little Flock Baptist Church in Shepherdsville went to North Bullitt High School and Hebron Middle School, but were not allowed to have lunch with students. The principals told the ministers that Superintendent Michael Eberbaugh ordered an end to the visits after some staff members expressed concerns.

Shaver called the move "anti-Christian discrimination" and said that the ministers visiting the school didn't cross any legal lines. He said he doesn't understand what, if anything, his ministers did wrong since they did not conduct worship services, pass out pamphlets or promote any particular church.

"We know what we can do and what we can't do," Shaver said in an interview Tuesday. "We hang out, tell the kids 'We love you -- you're important."'

Eberbaugh referred calls to school board attorney Eric Farris, who said the issue would be discussed and decided by the school board February 17.

Public schools cannot prohibit or endorse religious activities, but students can initiate such activities before or after school or during specified club activity periods.

Lisa Gross, spokeswoman for Kentucky Education Commissioner Gene Wilhoit, said school officials don't have to let any outside groups in during regular school hours. Wilhoit encourages local involvement in the schools, but it must be OK with the superintendent and school board, Gross said.


Tom Mann, a 10-year member of Little Flock Ministry Center, takes part in a protest across the street from the North Bullitt High School.
Policies to keep people or groups off campus have sparked debate elsewhere in the nation, usually when a school district moves to keep only religious organizations or specific religions off campus, said John Whitehead, president of the Rutherford Institute, a Virginia-based civil liberties group involved in church-state litigation.

The law doesn't allow only religious groups to be on campus, but those groups can't be the only ones excluded either, Whitehead said.

"The schools can work this out," Whitehead said. "The approach should be how can we allow access to something the students want that will help them."

Public schools in Jefferson and Fayette counties, two of Kentucky's largest districts, require permission for outside groups to visit campuses during school hours.

Shaver said until the issue is resolved, he plans to continue leading protests by marching outside the schools and the school board office. A stack of black-and-white signs calling Eberbaugh's decision discriminatory were piled in the lobby of the church offices.

If the school board doesn't reverse the superintendent's decision, Shaver said he is considering a lawsuit.

"Public schools are for public involvement," he said.

[Blake]

i agree with ya, in my opinion, its about time.

Originally posted by Keith P
I personally agree with this move. When I attended high school I used to see all the young life freaks walking around and talking to the students. Never once did I encounter someone from a gay rights organization etc. etc.

what's a 'young life freak"

In general - society has seen the clergy as a positive influence on our culture - notable exceptions aside the generalization is true.

In general - a gay rights organization in a school would be perceived as being akin to NAMBLA (rightly or wrongly it is likely that it would not be warmly received)

Originally posted by Keith P
If these religious fanatics are to be allowed into our schools then the rest of the lot should've had the opportunity to address and talk to students. Let alone noone from the outside was ever allowed to come join students for lunch. They shouldn't make exceptions for people from religious organizations

If this is a public school I'd be quite inclined to agree that it is no place for proselytizing.

But, I'd ask you this regarding your ugly characterization....if you woke up one morning and found enlightenment and the solution was a simple one and any could do it - wouldn't you want to tell people?

Originally posted by Keith P
http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/02....ap/index.html

SHEPHERDSVILLE, Kentucky (AP) -- Ronald Shaver has lost his daily lunch appointment.

For 17 years, he and other Baptist ministers have been meeting with Bullitt County public school students during their lunch breaks. But school officials in this county south of Louisville now say those meetings are no longer allowed during the school day, a decision that has prompted protests from church members and a call to pack next week's school board meeting.

The dispute started last month when ministers of Little Flock Baptist Church in Shepherdsville went to North Bullitt High School and Hebron Middle School, but were not allowed to have lunch with students. The principals told the ministers that Superintendent Michael Eberbaugh ordered an end to the visits after some staff members expressed concerns.

Shaver called the move "anti-Christian discrimination" and said that the ministers visiting the school didn't cross any legal lines. He said he doesn't understand what, if anything, his ministers did wrong since they did not conduct worship services, pass out pamphlets or promote any particular church.

"We know what we can do and what we can't do," Shaver said in an interview Tuesday. "We hang out, tell the kids 'We love you -- you're important."'

Eberbaugh referred calls to school board attorney Eric Farris, who said the issue would be discussed and decided by the school board February 17.

Public schools cannot prohibit or endorse religious activities, but students can initiate such activities before or after school or during specified club activity periods.

Lisa Gross, spokeswoman for Kentucky Education Commissioner Gene Wilhoit, said school officials don't have to let any outside groups in during regular school hours. Wilhoit encourages local involvement in the schools, but it must be OK with the superintendent and school board, Gross said.


Tom Mann, a 10-year member of Little Flock Ministry Center, takes part in a protest across the street from the North Bullitt High School.
Policies to keep people or groups off campus have sparked debate elsewhere in the nation, usually when a school district moves to keep only religious organizations or specific religions off campus, said John Whitehead, president of the Rutherford Institute, a Virginia-based civil liberties group involved in church-state litigation.

The law doesn't allow only religious groups to be on campus, but those groups can't be the only ones excluded either, Whitehead said.

"The schools can work this out," Whitehead said. "The approach should be how can we allow access to something the students want that will help them."

Public schools in Jefferson and Fayette counties, two of Kentucky's largest districts, require permission for outside groups to visit campuses during school hours.

Shaver said until the issue is resolved, he plans to continue leading protests by marching outside the schools and the school board office. A stack of black-and-white signs calling Eberbaugh's decision discriminatory were piled in the lobby of the church offices.

If the school board doesn't reverse the superintendent's decision, Shaver said he is considering a lawsuit.

"Public schools are for public involvement," he said.

Didn't sound like the ministers were talking to people who didn't want to talk with them and it didn't sound like they were doing anything improper.

Do you really find Christianity so offensive?

[Keith P]

it's not christianity that bothers me
suggesting these people are the face of christian america makes me want to cry
I believe in alot of christian teachings
BUT
our schools are supposed to be secular learning enviroments.

by allowing a minister in to talk to students...
the school is setting an example by saying these certain members or certain organizations have the right to be influencing students on school grounds

if a gay student were not allowed to be consulted or whatever by a member of a gay rights organization while this is going on would be completely ludicrous

this is what ministers do
they tend to their herd
or thats the analogy used most often

members of other spiritual or political(religion takes on political motives as well) should be allowed to do this as well

I've never personally experienced any proof of it

Young Life is a christian group that does retreats and activities with christian students etc.
I have quite a beef with their organization


I love christianity
but these people are the perverse representations of the literal christian movement
personall beef and much more complex
I'd suggest not discussing nymore with me about it in this thread
different topic

my main beef is this

if ministers are allowed in
members of other organizations should be as well

solution:keep em all out
let students take up their religious, political lives before or after school

I wouldn't go as far as saying
ban prayer or religious atire etc.

but these people just don't need to be on school grounds.
The public school is showing favor to a group of people by letting these people in.

think they ever let a Rabi in?

if you woke up one morning and found enlightenment and the solution was a simple one and any could do it - wouldn't you want to tell people?

I'm working on the enlightment thing.
I'll tell u about it after class

[Adam D]

Originally posted by xiannaix
what's a 'young life freak"

Young Life is a Christian student organization in high school. My experience in high school was that 90% of their members were the same ones throwing keggers, trying to get laid, and generally harassing all of the uncool students except for when they were in YL meetings. "Sunday Christians" of sorts.

In general - society has seen the clergy as a positive influence on our culture - notable exceptions aside the generalization is true.

In general - a gay rights organization in a school would be perceived as being akin to NAMBLA (rightly or wrongly it is likely that it would not be warmly received)

That's generally worth accepting. But that doesn't make it acceptable to allow ministers to toe the line with what they can get away with so they can have a presence on campus, while student rights groups by students for students cannot exist or come under extreme protest. That's a hypocritical position.

Moreover, there's a huge difference between a student group and a group of ministers who come on to campus, but are neither students nor faculty. Schools have the right to exclude anybody from entering the premises, that's a preemption to the free speech argument.

If this is a public school I'd be quite inclined to agree that it is no place for proselytizing.

But, I'd ask you this regarding your ugly characterization....if you woke up one morning and found enlightenment and the solution was a simple one and any could do it - wouldn't you want to tell people?

That's fine, people can choose to want to share their beliefs. But there is still appropriate and unappropriate time/place/manner. If they want to promote Christianity on campus, then they should try to bring a Christian student group to campus.

Their existence may be restraining students from creating a GBLT group, or from GBLT from being able to act freely as they choose (within the school rules) because these ministers are creating an intimidation factor. If there's even a possibility, then I would pick the liberties of the student in a school over those of a third party.






Didn't sound like the ministers were talking to people who didn't want to talk with them and it didn't sound like they were doing anything improper.

Do you really find Christianity so offensive? [/B][/QUOTE]

Originally posted by Keith P
it's not christianity that bothers me
suggesting these people are the face of christian america makes me want to cry
I believe in alot of christian teachings
BUT
our schools are supposed to be secular learning enviroments.

fair enough

Originally posted by Keith P
by allowing a minister in to talk to students...
the school is setting an example by saying these certain members or certain organizations have the right to be influencing students on school grounds

From my reading of the article the school wasn't playing gatekeeper and denying other groups while allowing only those "preferred" groups onto campus - if it selected "certatin organizations" I'd agree with you completely. But, that didn't appear to be the case from the article.

Originally posted by Keith P
if a gay student were not allowed to be consulted or whatever by a member of a gay rights organization while this is going on would be completely ludicrous

Who said anything about this being a "gay rights" issue? Who said gay rights organizations were prohibitted?

Originally posted by Keith P
this is what ministers do
they tend to their herd
or thats the analogy used most often

I believe a more genteel term "flock" is used. In reference to Jesus being a shepherd.

Originally posted by Keith P
members of other spiritual or political(religion takes on political motives as well) should be allowed to do this as well

Again, nowhere did it say that other groups were denied.

Originally posted by Keith P
I've never personally experienced any proof of it

Young Life is a christian group that does retreats and activities with christian students etc.
I have quite a beef with their organization

But you think they are "freaks." How come? Or, what's the beef?

Originally posted by Keith P
I love christianity
but these people are the perverse representations of the literal christian movement
personall beef and much more complex
I'd suggest not discussing nymore with me about it in this thread
different topic

You mean they read the bible as litterally the word of god?

I have a bit of a problem with people who do that.

Originally posted by Keith P
my main beef is this

if ministers are allowed in
members of other organizations should be as well

Fair enough - again - didn't see anything that suggested that some groups were denied and some allowed.

Originally posted by Keith P
solution:keep em all out
let students take up their religious, political lives before or after school

Fair enough

Originally posted by Keith P
I wouldn't go as far as saying
ban prayer or religious atire etc.

If the ban is intended to have a chilling effect on religion I'd oppose it. However, as I've noted elsewhere - there areplenty of reasons having nothing what so ever to do with religion to support regulting school attire quite strictly.

Originally posted by Keith P
but these people just don't need to be on school grounds.
The public school is showing favor to a group of people by letting these people in.

think they ever let a Rabi in?

Better question is - did they ever deny a Rabbi?

Originally posted by Keith P
I'm working on the enlightment thing.
I'll tell u about it after class

looking forward to it

Originally posted by Adam D


Young Life is a Christian student organization in high school. My experience in high school was that 90% of their members were the same ones throwing keggers, trying to get laid, and generally harassing all of the uncool students except for when they were in YL meetings. "Sunday Christians" of sorts.


That's generally worth accepting. But that doesn't make it acceptable to allow ministers to toe the line with what they can get away with so they can have a presence on campus, while student rights groups by students for students cannot exist or come under extreme protest. That's a hypocritical position.

Adam - I would have to make a value judgement about this generalizations in order to be hypocritical. You may find them contradictory - I don't. I think as genrealizations what I said is true. At no point did I say it was right or wrong - and was in no way hypocritical.

Originally posted by Adam D
Moreover, there's a huge difference between a student group and a group of ministers who come on to campus, but are neither students nor faculty. Schools have the right to exclude anybody from entering the premises, that's a preemption to the free speech argument.

Schools can prohibit people from coming onto campus - doing so based on content of message does raise constitutional issues - but more to the group than the students.

And I'm not sure how you are using "preemption" here - please clarify?

Originally posted by Adam D
That's fine, people can choose to want to share their beliefs. But there is still appropriate and unappropriate time/place/manner. If they want to promote Christianity on campus, then they should try to bring a Christian student group to campus.

Their existence may be restraining students from creating a GBLT group, or from GBLT from being able to act freely as they choose (within the school rules) because these ministers are creating an intimidation factor. If there's even a possibility, then I would pick the liberties of the student in a school over those of a third party.

If this were the case I'd agree with you Adam. However, from the article there was no suggestion that this was even remotley a problem. There were no student complaints only from some school officials....who spoke no no student complaints to them.

There was commentary from the relgious group that said they knwe where the line was and did not cross it....the officials who complained did not contradict that claim.

[Keith P]

I was giving u a hypothetical scenario with the gay rights organization xianniax

something for u to consider

this is also from my personal experience
only people I ever encountered during school lunch were military personel and young life members.

If this were the case I'd agree with you Adam. However, from the article there was no suggestion that this was even remotley a problem. There were no student complaints only from some school officials....who spoke no no student complaints to them.

There was commentary from the relgious group that said they knwe where the line was and did not cross it....the officials who complained did not contradict that claim.

regardless
the super intendant may have been inclined to do this for some reason other than the one listed in the article
as I said
just keep them all out
the students can call their minister if they want:P

seems a fair suggestion to me Keith

Originally posted by mikegfromwp
even indirectly associating nambla with gay rights is offensive to me. not all gay rights organizations are comprised of "the gays" (PFLAG, for instance), and most gay rights organizations aren't groups fighting for acceptance and legalization of pedophilia.

You missed my point entirely. I was not, even indirectly, associating the two - that was your doing. My point was that a gay rights group - would be poorly perceived in a high school - not that a gay rights group is a bad thing.

For the record...I do not think there is anything inherently wrong with a gay rights group.

Originally posted by mikegfromwp
i wonder why a gay-straight alliance, pflag, or other gay rights organizations would not be warmly received in a public school that have baptist ministers visiting it... i can't possibly imagine the reason why. This not so warm welcome would probably be extended to a lot of other groups, too (budhists, atheists, planned parenthood, etc).

no, in general i don't find christianity offensive. Conversely, I do find a lot of christians to be.

Let me explain why agy rights groups wouldn't be warmly received....oh wait - you're being sarcastic.

My point was simply that many places are not receptive to alternative lifestyles and homosexuality in particular receives a lot of condemnation - and again for the record at no point did I condemn homosexuality

[johnny861]

Interesting... While I agree with the secular learning environment, I think curriculum in high schools should include a philosophy based religions course that explores popular religions and spiritual practices in the world.


I feel students need to learn about these concepts and understand how faith is a driving force on the planet. This might broaden an understanding of people who are guided by their faith and comprehend the reasons they take action in the ways they do.

Originally posted by johnny861
Interesting... While I agree with the secular learning environment, I think curriculum in high schools should include a philosophy based religions course that explores popular religions and spiritual practices in the world.


I feel students need to learn about these concepts and understand how faith is a driving force on the planet. This might broaden an understanding of people who are guided by their faith and comprehend the reasons they take action in the ways they do.

I think you'll find objections from people of faith suggesting that you are doing a disservice to their faith by teaching it as a kind of social science/philosophy/literature/cultural studies (whatever definition they come up with) - right up there with the brief course on the Greek and Roman pantheon that I had in junior high.

I think I understand your point - are you suggesting that it would be helpful for educational purposes to teach children about different faith traditions in the hope that exposure to the various teachings, practices etc would promote greater understanding which would in turn have a significant impact on tolerance and appreciation for differences? If so - I'm on board.

[Element4040]

Originally posted by xiannaix


I think I understand your point - are you suggesting that it would be helpful for educational purposes to teach children about different faith traditions in the hope that exposure to the various teachings, practices etc would promote greater understanding which would in turn have a significant impact on tolerance and appreciation for differences? If so - I'm on board.

That's how I understood his argument. If that is true than I'd have to say I'd agree with you. However I don't think that type of legislation would ever see the light of day unfortunately.

[johnny861]

That's exactly my point. One cannot deny that religion and spiritualism has had quite a huge social impact on the world. While we cannot play favorites and have certain religious groups meddle in secular learning, sheltering children from religion altogether, is just as neglegent.

Such curriculum can provide a forum for students and provide them a better understanding of these social-cultural practices.

[Vosh]

I wonder how many of you still attend high school, or even college for that matter.

Once again, let's talk TO the kids about this issue instead of ABOUT to the kids.

I do realize that sometimes adolescents need direction in life and guidelines set up by their elders (preferably with the input of the younger generation and on a moderate level).

Personally: Ban one group, ban them all. Allow one group, allow them all. Prayer to God in school? Then also Prayer to Satan himself if you so choose that to be your PERSONAL belief.

End hypocrisy.

Edited Side Note:

Graduated from my HS in 2003. I personally would have refused to attend a class in which religion is taught. I don't care what religion it is, I'd refuse the class be it any religion.